here is a picture, just the kind that makes me absolutely crazy..I first need to find the horizon or eye line right? well this is the spot I have chosen for that line to go...is that correct?

now if it is correct, I should be able to put a bunch of lines radiating from this line and then my windows and stuff should fall into place right? what am i missing?

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No, its too low.

The horizon line is at your eye-level

It is the line at which edges of objects stay at the same level - don't go up or down - as they recede from you.

It's also the line at which receding parallel objects, extended from above and below (like the top of the doorframe and the step) cross:

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(Ignore the slats on the doors, they're a bad guide, dependent on how the door's hung, whether it's properly shut etc - windows, frames and brickwork here are a better guide)


Dave

thank you dave, so if I am drawing a building I can always use the window as guide lines like this to find my eye level?

Yes, use windows, doorframes, brickwork, other things which should be horizontal, to help you find the eyelevel/horizon in the scene (note that photos are often taken from a viewpoint lower than that of most adults, as is the case with this one).

Once you've worked out where the horizon-line should be, you can select vanishing points along it and use those to set up edges of windows, roofs, etc in your drawing.

so maybe that has been my problem all along, determining the horizon or eye level..lets see, how bout these two, am I getting it right? are these eye levels correct

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The first of those two is pretty good (note that the frontage of the buildings is not straight)

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I think that you have the second one too low again:

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Dave gave you very good advice. When I started to draw in perspective I draw as many lines as I could. These lines helped me stay on track.


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thank you so much dave, I think I may go and try to practice on finding horizon lines..it appears that is my problem, as last now at least i know what it is..and that is throwing me..Dave always gives spot on advice..

Yes he does. Can I ask if you took these photos?

yes I 'TOOK' the photos.. didn't i tell you about the dont ask dont tell policy

i 'borrowed' them for the purpose of this conversation..

perspective

that is the link i have been working from, along with other sources..so if I am correct, the eye line or horizon line (they are one in the same correct?) does not even necessarily have to be on the paper?

That is correct

If you take photos yourself, take a look at the building, and then walk up to it and just make a note of where your eye level is (assuming you're on level ground) Or if there is someone in the picture, you can get a good idea of eye level from the person. As in this photo previously posted up.

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My wife is in the red jacket, and she is about the same hieght as me, so the horizon/eye line is somewhere through her head! As I was stood almost opposite her and only on a slight downward slope, that would be my starting point!. As Dave pointed out, window sills and brickwork are good places to find a straight line. Print out your picture and put a ruler across the page.

ok, now we know it, my exact problem, and I apologize to you guys for my total ignorance, I feel so very stupid..steve i would have put the horizon line even lower like around her waist,

why oh why is this so hard for me and everyone seems to get it just fine..perhaps I am slightly retarded

Don't feel bad.. I don't get it all that much myself..

it may help us to understand better if we get some pics together, as i have earlier, put the line where we think it should be, and let these guys correct us on that..I think that may be helpful to me if you guys wouldnt mind? I will choose 3 or 4 more pics draw my line and then you can tell me what i am doing wrong please..

thanks so much in advance, airscapes i invite you and the others having issues to join in..it may help us all to grow another step..
perspective is detrimental to what i want to do..little figures and buildings and what not..

how about this one, i cant seem to find a straight line on this one..

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poor dave, he has dealt with me before I hope I haven't broken him, or wore him down

ok..perhaps this one...the eye line being the white line? vp off page? Click to view attachment

Now that one's more tricky, because the street is a hill, and the photographer is at the top of it. Look at how those little roofs above the windows step down.

Also, you need to use a ruler on these, don't try drawing the lines freehand (they look like an ECG from a cardiac arrest )

Let's try another approach - lets look at just one window:

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Now if we compare the two edges of the window (assuming, reasonably, that the window is mounted "square"), then if a horizontal line recedes from us and appears to slope down, then we must be below it, and if a horizontal line appears to slope up as it goes away from us, we must be above it.

So, let's take a closer look:

I've copied the left-hand-edge of the window along, to make the comparison easier to see (and made it b&w, for the same reason).

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The top rail of the window slopes down as it goes away from us - it is lower on the left than on the right - this means that it is higher than our eye-level.
The other three rails, though, appear to slope upward as they recede from us, and this is increasingly obvious as we look at the bottom ones. This means that they are all below our eye-line.

So the horizon line must lie between the top rail, and the second one, as I've marked in green.

Hum.. how tall are you? To me the hanging flower pot would be eye level.. at 5'8"
If you are only 5' 1" or so I would say the white line from what I am getting out of this..

It can often be a good idea to work from one particular feature, which you can be confident about - here I've chosen the stone edging to the window:

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and I'd estimate the horizon-line to be a little higher than you have it.

lol..i think i am about 5'6..

Ok..let me go try to actually draw something, dig out a ruler and dig in for the p.m..

and I will share it regardless, so you can show me where i went wrong..

thanks so much dave for taking the time, it really is appreciated

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hey this looks pretty close..could you possibly have made a breakthrough with me?

Kay,

here is an idea I got from an article by Aussie Artist Malcolm Carver - it can be used to help get the perspective right when working en plein air, in a sketchbook, or whatever.

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The first mark is the horizontal line and its the hardest for you being eyeline (sorry ), but if you just think if you were standing looking, or sitting in a cafe looking, where would your eye level be?

Then if you put in the vertical line, and then treat the whole as if it were a clock face and fill in the lines to the hours on the outside. The centre point is where the vanishing point would be. So if you drew this on a piece of acetate you could hold it up outside or place it over a photo and as long as your centre (eye line) is right the rest will fall into place for you. After a while you won't need the tool and will be able to sketch a few lines to reassure yourself that your perspective is right.

As you can see from the example below the vanishing point can fall anywhere and here it is at the edge of this pic.


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I hope this is helpful........it really simplified what I had complicated in my brain Click to view attachment and made total sense to me.

If anyone wants the whole article its available in Issue 300 of Australian Artist.

wow, that is one way i havent seen..I shall give it a try as well..I am puttering away on one, but i think i may have gone awry, we'll see how she comes out..lol..

ok, here is another attempt, the last for the nite, as i have given myself a grand head ache..

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The first two buildings are OK, the windows on the 3 storey building don't follow your perspective lines. The top of the windows in the middle line should be roughly your eyeline, so they should be horizontal across the page.


Going back to this picture (or any pic) The quickest way to determine your eye line is to put just two lines in first.


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In this case, I took the roof line and the underside of the canopies. Where these two lines cross is your eye line. If you now put a line horizontaly through the crossover point, you will see that Daves prediction of where the eyeline is, was correct! This is the simplest way to find your eyeline.

Back to this shop. By putting in the two green lines, I can see my first assuption was off, and the eyeline goes through my wifes shoulders!

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Try it with just two lines to find the crossover, then strike a line through horizontaly.

here is the other one i did last night, today I shall try again, using the crossing over point..

You guys have been such a great help. i think i feel progress

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k..now i am beginning to get a little excited..I think i got, OMG..I think I got it!! I have been so thick, careful...easy...not to excited ...lets try another..
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have you guys given up on me already?

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No, just busy with other things:)

You're sort of getting there - but all the lines of objects which are horizontal in the scene, and receding from us
ought to go to the same vanishing point...

...so in the pic above showing the corner of the building, there should be two vanishing points:

one for all the horizontals on the left wall...

and another for all the horizontals on the right wall...

...but both vanishing points need to be on the same horizon-line.

i think i keep moving my vanishing point..argh! better than i ever got before though..back to it for another try

You are definitely getting better, Kay.

But can I give you one firm piece of advice here? - not sure exactly how you are going about these - but here's how you ought to, in the first instance, until you've got a firm grasp on the process.

Firstly, forget any ideas about drawing freehand - or that using a ruler or measuring is in some way "inartistic", or "cheating". Erasing mistakes is allowed, too.

Start with a hard pencil(so it draws a faint line). Using a ruler, draw in a horizon-line.

Somewhere near the middle, draw a vertical line, this is going to be the corner of your building.

You need to decide how far above and below the horizon-line you want to draw the vertical - remember that the distance below it is 5 feet (remember that the horizon-line crosses all objects in the scene at your eye-level)

So, if the length of the vertical below the horizon line is 5 feet, then if it is made the same length above, that would make the building 10 feet tall - or twice the length would make it 15 ft ( 5 ft below + 10 ft above) - or three times above would make it 20 ft (5 ft below + 15 ft above)...

Now clearly mark two vanishing-points on your horizon-line - one near the left edge of the paper for everything on the left wall - and one near the right edge of the paper for everything on the right wall.

ALL the horizontals on the left wall then go to that left vanishing point - draw them in accurately, using the ruler, taking the end of the ruler through the vanishing point.

Likewise, ALL the horizontals on the right wall then go to that right vanishing point - again, draw them in accurately, using the ruler, taking the end of the ruler through the vanishing point.

ALL the verticals are treated as vertical on the paper (this is 2-point perspective).

Now, once you've got all that construction done, do the actual drawing, in softer pencil, on top of that.

ok..is it ok that i switch drawing pictures, or should i continue drawing the same? or does it matter, its all perspective right?

In this case, why not have another go at drawing the last one - it seems a good subject, I've given you specific advice on how to go about it, and when you do it, we can directly compare with the previous version, if needed.

At this point, I'd say the immediate aim is not so much to produce a unique work of art as to master the technical skill, to get the underlying construction right.

sorry, i had already closed that window i was working from, I shall use one of the previous, it figures thats the one i did not save..

Oh Kay, the more I look at your current Avatar.........the more I think you chose it after 2 weeks of working on perspective! Don't panic I don't get it right all the time either, and I just claim them as a niave style when I muff it .............works for me

sue, thanks for the support,

dave i did find the picture, i am working on it, but will have to go to bed soon, a couple of early morn appts.

I think Dave was in bed when you posted that. At 4:00 AM.

I know i know....I have been working soo hard on this..I have another done, and it is much better than the last..dont give up on me ..i am ''right'' there, THE CLOSEST i HAVE EVER BEEN!!
I will post it when i return..I still have to make it darker

practice practice..Kay.. it is interesting to see how well you have come in such a short time with your perspective drawings..in time it will become easier for you..good job!
Kat

thank you for the support, I think we should prepare a cape for dave, my drawspace superhero..honestly, this guy has reached me when no one or nothing else could, I dont know why, he just works for me..and he really isnt telling me nothing i havent heard or read before a thousand times over, but he manages somehow to make it make sense.. I think I am proud of my self with this one that is coming up..i think he will be pleased to to see he isnt wasting his time, i really am trying

k, here it is..and the ref pic too

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Almost!

Your eyeline appears to be at ground level, but in fact, the eyeline is here.

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As this appears to be a fairly level and flat area, a good indication of eye level might be this geezer!

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How are you looking at these pics? Just on the computer screen? Do you print them out? If you are looking at them on the screen, hold up your pencil/ruler horizontaly in front of you and try to get an idea of eye level that way. Like this.

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yep on the screen, and I do measure like that, also That is where I chose my eyeline to be (tickled that i got that part right) so now I need to figure out why if i chose the correct eye level I still drew it this way..Perhaps it is a vp issue? not far enough away? too far?


ooooh..i am so close to understanding

I would also like to add this is the first time i used my ruler in ages other than to fish something from under the couch!!

Your eyeline is wrong. You have it running at the base of the doors of the building, but in fact, the base of the doors should be rising up from thr ight to the VP on the left! Because you are above that level.

Click here.

i see that now, well, let me go try again Click to view attachment
'stupid eye level' maybe i am just cockeyed

Post a photo of your eyes. I'm no opthalmologist! But I'll give you my opinion...