I'd like to see a daily limit in how many images posted in one day. Some of these people will post 10 to 20 at one time'
Three to 4 max a day would give a chance for all to be seen instead of having to wade thru dozens.

Hi Reed,

Yes, I agree, the moderators discussed something very similar just recently. The gallery can get really swamped sometimes, especially when new members try to build up a gallery all at once. We'll see what we can do!

I wish there was some way to make people participate in the forum comunity, they suck up the free lessons and free storage .. and don't give anything back.

Well, one particularly radical proposal that has been floated: eliminate the galleries altogether. Then, as on some other art forums, people could create "Airscapes' Art" threads to post their work in.

Na, don't think that would be any "Better" and Don't realy think there is a simple solution, as I am sure you are aware. It is just a shame that when something is offered for free, some folks take advantage of it.

Hi
I agree. Some people post too many posts in a row. But maybe,(new commers) don't realise that straight away. It takes a while to figure how everything works around here. I speak for myself. I didn't realise there was a forum for discussion till now. and there are still a few things I have to learn. For example: if I decide to enter the week challeng, were do I post my drawing? in my drawsapce (my gallery) or elsewhere?
Anyway I think it's very important to respect everyone.

I like the galleries. It is interesting to see what others are doing at the moment and links to their previous work. It gives people a chance to comment and to read other people's comments. I do think a daily limit is a good idea so that the previous gallery pictures aren't wiped off the visible gallery too quickly.

I love the combination of lessons, galleries, and forum, but would like to see more people posting--just because I enjoy reading the forum. I don't think people should feel obligated to post, but it would be nice to encourage them in some way.

Marilyn

i think sharing is caring

there is a new user who has incredible drawings and we can learn from them ... she posted about 20 in the first day .. it was a pleasure for me to observe the techniques and supplies she used

i don't think that any drawing uploaded on this site could be useless

You post it as an attachment to a reply right in the challenge thread.

It would be nice if there was a way that you could add your drawing to your own albums and not have them all go to the gallery. Then you could just post the ones in the gallery that you really wanted to share but everyone could still see your work in your album instead of having it private.

Thank you so much.
Love Kaly

I agree, when I put mine on I had no idea it was going into a gallery - I just assumed it was going into my own "album" so as much as I fall into one of the people who posted a few at once - I did it without knowing it was also going into a gallery also.

My question is why do you post your work to a gallery?

Why do any of us want our images online?

And why don't some participate in the forum?

My guess at some of the answers would be:

1. Exposure of art work to the world. The gallery is free to all individuals to post their work and show it to the world without any effort or stress. There are no marketing tools to create, no galleries to deal with, no fees to pay for hanging, no framing costs. Its just upload and post. You can flood the gallery with a thousand images, good or bad, without a thought for quality or quantity.

2. Seeking positive recognition - i.e. comments. And they should be provided where warranted. However, if an individual truly wants to grow as an artist, they would welcome constructive critiques of their work in a specific thread - such as the Critique Thread. The collection of positive comments, while good for the ego, really achieve little. A host of 'wonderful, beautiful and nice work' comments mean absolutely nothing and can do more harm than good in the long run by not helping the artist improve skills and techniques.

Its the same as telling a child constantly that they are wonderful at everything when indeed they are not. Its been proven that this is not a useful thing to do, as it builds up the child for failure when they are outside that environment (usually family) and into the real world. The same holds true for the art world. If I tell you your stick man is wonderful while I know it is not, believe me, you're in for a rude awakening when you try to sell your stick man to a gallery or potential buyer.

3. Anonymity - there is no fear of confrontation if you can hide behind a gallery and not respond to comments or deal with the reality of life as someone learning to draw (and we all learn continually).

I don't know of any other art forum online that allows participants to post their drawings outside of a forum, where participation is obligatory and expected.

4. Individuals may not participate in forums due to several factors - language skills - including both skills in the English language if its not your native tongue and written language skills such as sentence structure, spelling, etc. Fear of having work criticized, fear that an opinion isn't valued, not knowing the people in the forum well enough to comment - all excuses for non participation can seem to be fear or rejection based.

The other is pure and simple apathy. There are the takers in this world who want the free things and there are those who give back. I see the takers as those who use the gallery and the lessons, but don't participate in the forums.

If individuals had their own gallery that could only be accessed by someone entering it from a list or the individual's profile details, I think that participation would increase in the forums as there would not be as much general exposure. If I person wanted feedback or exposure they would have to come into a forum to get that.

So what do others think?

I've been putting images in my gallery to get both comments and critism, but now I realize the Critique thread makes more sense. It's just that the warning about it being your best work made me hesitate to post any pictures.

A limit is a good idea to make sure people don't post 5-second doodles, but there are some artists' galleries which I would hate to see limited. Adolfo has lots of images in his gallery, but they are very high quality images and I don't think he should have to limit the images.

Another thing which might help the problem is that there are probably many members who have posted images in their gallery then abandonded this site. If they don't care about having their images in the gallery I don't really think people should have to wade through all the pictures they posted.

About the idea to eliminate the galleries... what about keeping the galleries, but also expanding the forum, perhaps making new categories, and threads similar to the Portrait thread but for other subjects- landscapes, still lifes, etc. It would get more images in the forum and less in the galleries. And I'm sure more people would get to see others' drawings than if they looked through the gallery.

I agree with you, Jeanette, on a lot of the points you bring up. The anonymity and the easy possiblity of putting up a gallery can be important factors in why not all the members on this site are participating in the forums. I have never looked askance, however, at those who use the gallery and the lessons, but do not participate. It doesn't say anywhere that you should and if you don't care to that's fine with me. They will miss out on some opportunities to grow as artists or even humans, if they do not put themselves out there sometimes, but that is not my problem.

For myself, I rarely go through the gallery these days, and that is mostly because of the massive posts that were mentioned at the beginning of this thread. But it is also because I get the sense that the posters in the gallery are not interested in critique, and there is no chance of having a constructive conversation via the galleries, especially since it is not possible to be notified of comments on your images. If I see somethiing that is begging for a closer critique I will pm the artist with my notes, hoping that they will not be offended. To be blunt, I find the gallery a bit boring and uneducational for me, with a few exceptions.

I like the critique thread a lot more, but I think that people are hesitant, both to post there and to join in the critique for fear that they will receive a very harsh judgement on their work or that they will say something wrong.. If people are afraid of posting there, because they fear that their image is not up to a certain standard, perhaps it would be a good idea to reword the welcoming mesage?

oh, and purplepaperwing - I don't think anyone meant that the limit would be on the galleries themselves. Just on how many images that could be posted every day by the same user. Adolfo rarely posts more than once a day, if even so often, so I don't think you will have to worry about missing any of his drawings.

Just another idea for the gallery. In the gallery only the last published work of an artist is visible. When someone is interested and clicks the image they automatically come in the artists album. This avoids we are overloaded with too much of the same.

Best regards, Cees

Hrymfaxe, if you use a service and never pay for it or contribute in any way except to take advantage of that service, it makes me wonder why an individual is here. I guess that was one of my points that I was trying to make. No, individuals don't have to participate in the forums of course, but why else would you be here if not to interact with other artists and learn? Isn't that the purpose of joining an art forum?

As a moderator and user of this forum and as a practicing artist, I don't see the purpose of plastering images of drawings, both good and bad, over the forum gallery. If it was a private gallery when an individual could only view the images by accessing that person's individual gallery, it would be different perhaps. The viewer then has choice. In its current form, it becomes more spam-like than beneficial.

Purplepaperwing, I like your idea of adding more dedicated threads to different subject matter to see if that would let people post in the forum.

I'm really not sure what the solution is for the gallery, but in its present form, in my humble opinion, its not working. I see a gallery as a show case for your best efforts, as any reality based art gallery would be. A regular art gallery doesn't want to see your working drawings or everything you've produced since grade school onwards, so why put them here if the gallery is public and not private? By all means, put your working drawings and sketches up for public comment in the forum and discuss how to improve your skills or teach others how to.

I'd really like to hear from others who use the gallery to post large numbers of images or who post regularly to provide their comments on this subject. I would truly like to understand why individuals post to the gallery and do participate in the forums.

I post all of my images on my own personal website and since joining here, have posted my newest works in the public gallery. Why do I do it? I like to share my work that I am proud of. I enjoy the comments and have in the past, when posting work in other forums, gotten personal email from folks just starting out saying I inspired them. It feels good. It is also a place you can send people (freind, family, clients) to view your art if you don't have a website. The gallery is good, the issue is the same here as it is on airbrushtechnique.com There are lots of people posted that do not post in the forum, but I think there is a space limit on the users at ABT to reduce the load. That prevents huge numbers of photos but the user can switch things out as often as they want.

As far as forum use, aftert looking at the artwork and the headings of them, it seems there are many young people here (a good thing!), I know when I was a teanage or younger, I was very shy, not sure I would jump right in either if there had been an internet back then.

I am sure language plays a part as well, this seems to be a very International site.

One idea to help with forum use may be a link on the drawing lesson page explaining the forum and it's usefullness, as well as some basic instruction on how to use it. I know there is a forum link at the top, but many of the older people on the internet today don't even know what a forum is, let alone how to use it.

Jeanette - I agree with you in not understanding why people do not participate. And as I said I think they are missing out on something potentially furthering for their art, but you can't force people to post in the forums. Perhaps they feel that it is enough to just download the lessons? And when something is free, it's free, and you can't chase people down for not contributing to it. You can only be sorry that that is the case, or change the system.



I agree on your points about the gallery, even if I too have uploaded sketches and unfinished drawings from time to time. There is just not an option of making a gallery public yet not having it feed into the common gallery. If there is not going to be a serious overhaul of the gallery structure, then an appeal to not post more than one image a day seems like a good idea to me. The difference between an online and a real gallery is that online it is the user who decides what goes up, and by limiting the daily quota I think a lot of the spamlike elements will disappear...

You're quite right Marie. I just get frustrated when the world seems to take all the time and never give back in return.

Thanks for your input and being a sounding board, its appreciated.

I think a new member should be sent a welcome letter. Explaining about the forum discussions and etiquette on this forum and in the gallery.
I also think there should be a newsletter once a week, that when you sign in, you go to that before your gallery. It would talk about the new challenges, what is being discussed in the forum, etc. Then even if people do not want to join the forum, they still have a sense of what is going on. For instance they would see that people are talking about the gallery and quantities, then if they thought this might apply to them they could check out what people are saying. It should be kept short with links to relevant info, so people will take the minute to read it.
Some one could take on writing the newsletter just like the challenges and the moderating, etc.

Those are some good points, because obviously this discussion is suffering the lack of those who don't read the forums, who are actually the ones we would like to engage.

I think that is an excellent idea Paulette. I assumed most people communicated through the members' galleries and private messages until recently.

i know i don't come here often (i do love this place i swear. time is so fleeting most of the time) but i couldn't help but reply...

i really think that most people's problem with just posting on the gallery and not forums is their lack of understanding of how this site works. i remember when i first came here and didn't know how where all the places of the site were at. i didn't even get the galleries all too well either. maybe what they think is that it's something similar to a place like deviantart where you just post you drawings and get feedback that way.

here, it seems this community is more forum based rather than gallery based (such as deviantart) but if you don't know what you're doing, some people might think the only way to get attention is by posting their work in their galleries.

maybe things should be more straightforward and have it explained more the purpose of this community and let newcomers know that critiquing and learning, not just praise is what this site wants to be known for.

I totaly agree with you Paulette, it would be nice for new commer's to receive a welcome letter explaining topics. That would certainly help.

Hi everyone,

Since you ask for it, I will try to give you my point of view. I guess you could call it the one of a taker.

As a newcomer to drawing, I feel I have much, much, much more to learn than I could ever give. I am not in a position to give any advice before many more drawings I suppose. By going through the gallery I can find out the style I prefer, look at how finished work appears, compare different drawings to understand why some are better than others in my point of view. And it is faster than through the forums, more compact information.

I also feel shy compared to all the good artists. Drawing is just a hobby for me and it sounds like many of you are doing it full time.

Moreover, I had never been part of a forum before, and it took me a while to start looking into it. It then took me another while to get acquainted with some of you. The more I read the closer I feel to everyone. I suppose I will get more involved in the future.

Finally, drawing takes a lot of my available time... Fine in winter but I wonder what will happen in summer. We'll see.

Thanks for creating the site, being part of it and sharing your knowledge. I will try to do my best.

Bye

hello to all!

I am reading this threat and there are many good points with which I agree. but at the beginning - ;-) means one month ago ;-) - I had no ideas from many things ... maybe I did not read everything but also maybe it was too much information at once. I was searching for "learn how to draw" and "free lessons" ( ) came here and stayed! because I saw that people are here who care for other questions - and I liked that!

at first I also thought that the albums are for everyone to write messages, critique and suggestions - therefore I also posted some "tests", which I have stopped. but if you say that only the best drawings are allowed to be posted - what should I post within the next year ??????????? for me it was this point to post my drawings and to maybe get some information what I can do better or try in another way to keep me on drawspace! after a while I realized that the messages and suggestions are not pretty much in the gallery and searched for another method (-> jeanette - sphere demo! - thanks here again - I have not finished until now ...). but to put every drawing in an extra thread is also no method. so I have to think of a next option to try. with you all good drawers around - who really try to help - it is sometimes a little bit ... don't know the word but it sometimes makes me feel silly "asking such stupid questions" as a beginner.

and I am sure if I had not my self-confidence (which is not really small ) I also would have not participated here in the forums around - as a BEGINNER ...

also a point is that you can find out much if you just read all things here - it will not fit for your own style maybe but which beginner does have an own style ??? - I just know for me if some things feel good or not! (and I also know that my cartoon cats do NOT want to get cartoon cats ... - but that's an other problem)

the newsletter is a good idea - but writing about what has been written ??? people only have to click on "general discussions" and will know what others are talking about ... the letter is a super idea !!! that would be helpful! also I think that a more splitted "general discussions" will be very helpful! now all themes are together and if you are searching you find everything but this one you are searching for ... maybe that's just me - sorry .
also it may be a wrong thinking that people who are not writing are also not reading ... I make that always at a beginning. helps to get to know the others and also who is writing back or giving answers and also the opinions of others. - hope you know what I mean.

like nathalie is writing - we are just beginners and want to learn. what other things can I say instead of "WOOOW" when seeing the pics of you others ??? I only can tell my opinion on pics but no giving advices and such things

(OK - have to don again some work. that's what I am paid for here in my office )

PS natalie:
I just looked at your album and know now who you are - sorry for calling you a beginner !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with not removing the galleries... I am often impressed with a WIP or challange drawing in the forums, to the point that I want to see more of this artists work, so I visit their albums. If all of this was in a thread at the forums, I would probably see a couple artworks, then slowly drawn in all the comments posted in between all the drawings. I would likely stop browsing the thread after a couple pages and miss out on some beautifull works posted later on.


My suggestions would be:

When someone has been inactive for a long time, like maybe 2 ot three years, you could send them an automated e-mail reminding them of this website, then if they still are inactive after say another 6 months, maybe the art work could be archived? That way, if it starts taking up too much space it could be compressed into back-up data, and if it doesn't take too much space it could be a seperate gallery, leaving the main gallery for the active people.

I was also going to suggest letting people know about websites such as deviantart or elfwood, where you can just post whatever you want and wait for comments, but I don't think that's a good idea anymore. When I read this thread and see how so many people started out lurking at the lessons and gallery only to join our community a little later on, I think it would be a shame if we miss out on more wonderfull people like that...

Instead, here is my idea... Instead of having the main www.drawspace.com website go straight to the lessons, maybe have an index page first. A simple page with 4 giant buttons, each linking to the 4 main links that are always at the top of the page. Maybe with a login/register option as well, I don't know. But that way, with the many people who join us for the lessons or gallery and who are so excited about what they found to not realise right away that there is a forum, there is a bigger chance they would notice there IS a forum here and it might make them curious enough to at least drop by and have a peek.


Other than that, I wouldn't mind some extra sections in the forum... maybe something like:

Welcome forum
General discussion
Work In Progress
Challenges
Critiques
Suggestions
Technical support

I mostly think it would be nice to have the challenges in a new section as I find they take up a lot of threads in the general discussion area and I find the amount of pinned topics makes me feel like I'm walking into a really cluttered place all the time. But that's just my two cents, I don't know if there is an easier way of sorting things out a little bit.

lycarynth: I totally agree with your mind and the sections you suggested are also fine !!! would make it MUCH MORE easier to find a topic you are searching for ...
if this is possible to make more sections I also think that people would stay longer here and going to have a closer look. as not everybody is interested in the same things you just show them with that: THERE IS MORE TO SEE AS YOU CAN THINK OF !!!

Hi,

are you using the view new posts options? I found it very helpful.

I don't know if someone already said it (I read most of the topic, but there's a lot of text here so did not read it all).

I don't believe that a post image limit per day would be good. I believe it could be better if only one draw per day would bring that updated gallery to the front, on the galleries part of the site. So if someone's posting 20 drawings that gallery will be in the first page (cause it was updated), but only the first posted drawing will appear.

This way everybody would know of the updated galleries and there would be no flood of drawings of the same gallery.

As for the problem of the people not coming to the forums I believe that is not much to do about it. Paulette idea of the welcome letter I think is the best.

hi nathalie !
depends on what I want to know and how fast I need it ... (good during office time )

Great observations and comments by all!

Does this topic have enough momentum to warrant change? Or is this just a good place to vent frustration (blow off steam about the galleries)?

As a new person, I still don't understand where to post images of my recent efforts. When I complete a lesson, I have the desire to show the author of that lesson my work... Where do I do that? How do I show the author of a lesson my appreciation and my progress?

I am far from having a "master piece" art work that I would want to post to a public gallery, but I think it's important to show others our efforts and even share what we're struggling with and ask for help / encouragement.

Also, the weekly challenges seem fun, but where do we post our projects so that others can understand the reason for the work? If the gallery is used, there is a disconnection between the challenge and the artwork (or so it seems).

I love change (especially when it benefits newer members that want to learn to draw). Will there be changes regarding this topic? Because of this site, I have a new energy for drawing and a new respect for the amount of time and effort it takes to really be good at it. Let's keep encouraging each other and make changes that bring more life time learners into the fold!

Thanks!

Back in the early 80's I ran an electronic bulletin board system (BBS). The typical mix was 95% downloading files and not uploading unless it was required. 80% were lurkers who read forums but never participated. Only 5 to 10% would post messages or play games. I'm assuming that nothing has changed in the way people act online. Even clubs I belong to have a large percentage of members who never come to anything and just receive the newsletters.

I would like to see the Gallery's recent image area limited to the last image posted during a 24 hour period by each person. This way we could see a variety of submissions rather than a flood by the same person. If we are curious about someone's work we can then click through to see their albums.

Welcome forum
General discussion
Work In Progress
Challenges
Critiques
Suggestions
Technical support

Nice breakout. I do find having everything under General Discussion a bit confusing...
I would to also like to see:

• I'm Just a Beginner: Some folks are really shy about putting forth their work next to someone who renders a very realistic drawing.
• Computer Art / Graphics: For those interested in sprites, working with tablets, and other non traditional methods.

• Gestalt / Abstract: An area devoted to drawings that capture a "sense" of a person/place or thing rather than trying to create a photo-realistic drawing.
• Anime / Cartoonists
• Watercolor / Painting

Hi Nathalie

I agree the "view new posts" option is very usefull, but not for new members as every single post will be new to them. Also, my reasons for dividing the forum into more sections are:

1 - show people the larger, most used reasons for the forum (being the challenges, critiques and WIPs)

2 - more people may end up checking the suggestions and welcome forum and actually replying there as some posts there take a while to receive a reply

3 - just my personal opinion too as I like to see the drawing challanges for example, but I want to see old challenges as well without having to scroll through all the posts looking for more things to browse... same for looking at WIPs, I find them very interesting to see, but I don't want to browse through all the topic listing pages or do several searches on possible thread titles and common typos just to find a couple to watch.

I guess in short I should say: I wanna be able to pick what type of topic I'm in the mood for show newcommers just how much this forum has to offer in one diverse listing and I want each section to get the attention it truely deserves