I keep finding that using a grid for a portrait will mess me up every time. I'll try it a couple times then I'll just start over by drawing a line and angle-ing everything in.
does anyone else have this problem?
and if you don't how do I fix it?
It just seems to take so much longer with angles and I'm trying to get faster


Maybe my "artists eye" is whack lol

I don't know would it help you, but this site helped me a lot. When I understood the basics of drawing human head and figure, it became much easier to draw people.

http://drawsketch.about.com/gi/dynamic/off...z.com/heads.htm

When I reallly want to make sure I am accurate, I use a partial grid. I set up a grid but mark the points of the main feature only so that I get the angles correct. I never was any good at full grids, they just confuse me. I either draw by eye or set up the main features then go from there.

Yeah the grid doesn't confuse me it's just the face doesnt turn out right. I know how to draw a face or head, and I can get it to look like the person I just cannot do it with a grid. Maybe I'll just stick to the way I do best

Your other option is to buy a projector and set up your outlines from that. You're guaranteed accuracy then.

DMI,

I can't use grids either I've tried. Just messes me up...hehehehe...so I use the basic knowlege of head proportions and then just compare and measure everything...I don't try to go fast in fact the longer the better for me...just the head and shoulders finished line drawing can take me up to 2 hours and it still won't be perfect...hehehe but then, we are not copy machines, we are artists and so without those little flaws, imperfections and exaggerations our drawings would lose their flavor....hehehehe. Just my 2 cents.

Laura

Very true Laura. I think i'll stick to my way. So far it's always worked better

Maybe you could check this out. At first glance it might appear to be another gridding system, but it's not.

It's called the Accurasee Measurement System, and it helps to implement basic measuring and alignment techniques. It's a measurement system, not a grid, and helps the artist find landmarks leading to correct proportion. It can be used during the drawing or afterwards to check proportions. It can be used from life and photo reference, and there's no "gridding" involved. Best of all, it's helping me see my weaknesses and improve! It's been very useful for my students in identifying their weaknesses and helping them develop the discipline necessary to implement basic drawing ideas.

If you're interested, feel free to visit and learn more at accurasee.com

To me this is a very interesting discussion. The point is that unlike any other work of art, great portraits depend on accuracte position. I do not consider any method of checking correct position as cheating but I do recomend drawing first, freehand, and then checking the position of objects. This method has helped me see more accurately. In fact I have been accused of copying and tracing simply because when I draw freehand and it doesn't look right I simply measure the angles and distances with a ruler so that the positions of the facial features are near perfect. But, I draw first and then check my accuracy. With practice I have developed a very critical eye for position. It is similar to a musician who has to make the exact cords or the singer who has to make the correct vocal sounds each time they play or sing.

Position is possibly the most important element of drawing portraits. But, there is also judgement of values and judgment of the most important elements of the personality or "story" in the portrait.

Frankly speaking, I would love to see the work of the critics who condemn people for griding or using projectors, or any other method to get the accurate position.

To me this is like saying the foundation of a building is all there is to building a house. Yes, a perfect foundation is necessary. But it is only the foundation. The beginning. An accurate foundation is critical but there is much more to building the house than just laying an accurate foundation.

Bobby

I`m fully agree with you , Bobby

otherwise the target / measure by thumb or using a Viewfinder would also cheating

I'll let these "critics" speak calmly, they should prove they can do it better

Personally I use a projector but I have not yet really trained myself to see.. or I am afraid to try since perfection is important.. ok, required for me! I don't like the use of the grid either, to much to erase! It seem to me if you have already learned how to utilize the right side of your brain to draw, using a method that is based on logic and more left brained cold be frustrating. .. Sorry I just started reading Drawing from the Right side of your Brain".. very interesting so far..

In the earliest phases of a drawing, one is trying to achieve accurate placement and proportions, which means getting the big shapes and masses down accurately.

People often have a tendency to go for detail prematurely, and this can lead to a situation where the individual features of a portrait are all individually well-drawn in isolation, but are disproportionate in their scale or placement to each other.

This occurs because people are concentrating on the relationships to each other of things that are all within, say, 1 inch of each other - but not on the relative placement of things that are, say, 6 inches from each other.

Gridding offers a workaround for this, because it allows people to concentrate on the small areas, while guaranteeing that the larger relationships are correctly placed - however, the problem with this is that it actively reinforces the beginner's mistaken belief that its all about getting the detail right, and completely avoids teaching about the importance of the larger relationships (as this is implicitly built into the gridding pattern).

If a line begins in one square of a grid, and then passes diagonally through another three intervening squares before ending in a fifth square - this is not best thought of as five little lines drawn separately in each of five small squares, but as one big line moving from its start-point to its end-point.



Yes, but you are learning to accurately assess line lengths, angles, and spatial relationships. Its slow at first, but one speeds up, and gains increasing accuracy, with practice. Spending time on such practice is very worthwhile.


Dave

That's just it - get rid of the "aides."

Using grids or projectors and tracing is cheating yourself out of the art experience - if you can't draw without them it means your not up to that level yet.

I freehand everything and it's the best rewarding experience for me.

It will go very slow at first but don't move on until your 100% satisfied with one particular area.

It will be hard n slow in beginning but worth it in the end; then you'll get faster n faster and be more n more comfortable with it.

Doing something on crutches doesn't make the artist - the perseverance of being free of them makes the art fly n free to shine.

Trust me on this.

sigh.

Sorry, but I really have to comment. I could scarcely be more opposed to this attitude.

Its not a moral crusade we are on here.

My post addressed practical, technical issues of drawing.

Please don't confuse the matter by trying to send people off on a guilt-trip. Its unnecessary, its irrelevant, and its bad teaching.


Dave

Hey Mom.. look at the Troll! No NO don't talk to it.. it has no comprehension!
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

I wasn't going to comment back but I wanted to afford one last remark here.

It's pretty sad about the attitudes of the last 2 posters.

I mean I donated my time to actually teach a beginner something - you should really take a look at my art before talking.

I didn't say my way is the best or Brenda's (or anybody's that's considered "expert" or whatever) - it's about what works for you. You have to take bits n pieces and that's how you form your style.

Using too many aides doesn't benefit you because you rely too much on them - older, harder way more beneficial because it really forces you to think and you get better.

I thought that the maturity level was higher here and people wanting to learn - I apologize if I offended, but my way benefits me and I thought there *might* be a piece of it that could benefit someone else here.

Drawing portraits is extremely hard and many under-estimate their degree of difficulty.

That's just my opinion of it.

Ciao.

I feel as if I am repeating my self over and over but I recommend drawing free hand first and then "testing" or checking the accuracy of the drawing by other means, like projectors or tracing paper or even grids. I believe the objective should be to train the eyes to see accurately. Any method that allows us to get a perfect position without "freehand" drawing is a crutch and will hinder us from training our eyes and brains to see correctly. So that is why I suggest drawing freehand first and then measure or use any method to "test" the accuracy of your drawing. To me the objective in drawing from sources, like from photos, is to train the eyes to see correctly.

Just my opinion, but I'm not fomiliar with the laws dealing with art or the amendment that deals with the legal way to draw according to the constitution If anyone knows the constitutional laws concerning the legal way to draw I would love to know the "amendment" or law that deals with the arts and the punishment for braking these laws. He he he.


Bobby

I also find this topic very interesting. I am very lucky in the fact the I do a fair amount of commissioned drawings and because of this I know it is important to get a good likeness, after all no one in their right mind is going to pay for a portrait that dose not look like the subject.
I have used grid method but like many have said I also found it to be too messy I now mainly use a light box to get a good tracing of the reference photo. This helps me to get the proportions right from the start but as Bobby has said you have to have a good foundations. Having said all this I also love to draw free hand because sometimes I think you get the best results artistically that way.
As for "get rid of the aides" the key word here is aides, they are just that aides. If you were to put a violin in the hands of a none violin player it would not make that person a violin player even if it was the best made violin in the world.

Kev

Perfectly said Kevin ...

OK. First I want to stress that I don't like to be harsh when discussing other people's style and technical level especially since I don't consider myself to be anywere near a professional level artist but I have to be real honest here. UP5, I've seen your work and you're in no position to condemn anyone for using drawing aids. If drawing aids were good enough for the masters to learn with, they're good enough for everyone else. I think you could benefit from them.

I guess it shouldn't surprise you that he hasn't made a whole lot of friends over at the Myspace art forums.

Been around a long time in forums.. back before there was a WWW or any of the other stuff most people take for granted these days.. and even in the early days when the internet was clean and pure, only about data transfer and sharing knowledge there were Trolls.. been around since the days of the caveman and will be here for ever more. You just need to recognize them and ignore them.. it is the only thing that works!

Well said. Used correctly, drawing aids can help teach us to see more accurately. We need to constantly challenge ourselves and be open to new ideas. For my part, there more I learn, the more I'm aware of how little I know. The key is to keep drawing.

Wow. I didn't mean to start all this but I'm glad I did. All very interesting stuff. I still draw free hand often, but I feel portraits must be measured of check at some point. At least if you want an extremely good likeness. I really was just wondering if there were more ways of doing it but it seems like the thing to do is just do your best work and eventually time will take care of itself.

Thanks all for the input. Even troll

It's really pathetic that people hate on me because I'm so talented.

Rick is a known drama head that aggressively sticks his head up everybody's business - that's why he's been banned before - I never been banned.

I'm no troll and I don't care to prove my point - use what you want. I got plenty of friends that see beyond people that wanna silence me (actually 4 incl. rsine=Rick), just go check my friends' list on MySpace.

MySpace artists forums had 3 idiots who think they are good at art and keep contradicting me - actually 3 bitter women (who barely post any of their art lol) and because Rick had no friends there he jumped in their lap. So, it's not ALL MYSPACE moron lolol

There are a few more actually good artists there that don't use their mouths to this degree - (insecurity? lol)

I mean yes my opinion differs and my art proves it - I don't have to agree with everybody else, Geez - get some individuality.

Very pathetic Rick - you ignore my posts there - so please do the same here - but at every opportunity you get (like the rest of the few usual lamers on MySpace) you jump on at the chance to "bash on UP."

Despite all this ridiculousness - I offered my friendship to you and others there before but you still reject me. (Wonder why? - too good at art and you're not lolol - seriously why - I don't get it.)

I'm actually very good at what I do, I work extremely hard everyday so you can go hate on that and write more troll crap, backstabber.

I really don't care - maybe I'm very straightforward because I talk straight from the heart and unlike you, who changes faces just to fit in.

I don't care where I'm at I'll always be truthful - because that's who I am.

Sorry for the rant but I don't need some idiot carry the stupid drama package from other places here - completely unnecessary.

At one point you have to realize who the rotten apples are to steer clear (save time + heartache) - but I learned.

O ya - and I just wanted to help - otherwise I wouldn't waste my time typing - I could do something else, right?

-Thanks.

P.S. Yes, and you're welcome (original poster).

When and were was I ever banned because this is the first time I've ever heard of it? Please enlighten me.

I said you still have a long way to go yet and suggested that instead of dismissing these drawing aids, that you instead give them a try because they might help you improve but as usual, you attack anyone who dares to criticize your "brilliant" work. It's this kind of behavior that has not won you a whole lot of friends over at the Myspace art forum.

Art is all about critiquing and if you can't handle it, how are you ever gonna make it as a professional artist one day?

Oh yeah please provide evidence to back up your claim that I was ever banned. Thanks.

Well you wrote about it whiney in your MySpace blog, dufus lolol - or you wanna me quote that too.. rofl.

Don't go and erase it now.. lol.

Well, I'll level with you - methods are methods - I'm open minded enough, just because I don't particularily use them I don't condem them - I just said they work for me - it's tough to draw without aides so it might work for others - because as few other posters said drawing this way really gets your skill up.

Like I said - I really don't care about arguing - but putting this foolishness aside, I think if I made a friend today (either you or somebody else) - it's something gained.

I'm always willing to change and I let stuff go - and yes I admit, I'm not a very good communicator because I say stuff straight up (disregarding feelings - I think that's the main issue you have with me?) - just because it saves time to get to the heart of the matter.

But that's just me and I can always change - to change is to adapt which is to survive.

Cya Rich.

First of all, you're not gonna win people over by calling them names. Second, I flat out said that you're art isn't at the level were you are in any position to criticize someone for using drawing aids. I also said that you could benefit from them as well. I also pointed out some of the bad behavior you're known for in the myspace forums and your last few posts in this thread backs this up. No were did I call you names or make any kind of personal attack. Yes it's nice to receive only adulations for our work but in the end, all that does is stroke the ego. In order for any artist to evolve and become better, they have to be willing to accept criticism as well. Unfortunately, this is something you seem to take upon yourself as personal attacks.

As for being banned, I assumed you meant the myspace art forums which I haven't. As for the two non-art related fan boards, my blog explains what happened and why I have an aversion towards internet fandoms.

I tend to be very honest in my opinions and sometimes my opinions tend to ruffle some feathers from time to time but I try to be fair and I NEVER result to name calling or other childish attacks. It's sad that you can't show the same maturity.

As for this comment you made... QUOTE "It's really pathetic that people hate on me because I'm so talented." I never said I hated you. I certainly don't like you but were did I say that I hated you? As for you commenting on how great and talented you are, you should understand that it isn't just skill alone that makes a great artist but humility as well. Something you need to practice more of.

Rsine, thanks very much for your restraint. UP, we don't tolerate name calling here -- please try to be more civil in the future.

I think everyone has said what needs to be said here. I'm not going to take the heavy-handed step of deleting this whole thread, but I am going to lock it to discourage any further argument.