Hi! Beginner and new boy here (using "boy" loosely).

I've had look at the lessons but can't see anything about using a pencil (or whatever) at arm's length to measure distances and angles of real objects.

My question is this: when measuring 'verticals', should the pencil always be held in a vertical plane, or just perpendicular to the line that you're looking along i.e. if the object was high up on the ceiling or it's the moon, should the pencil be held vertical, or perpendicular to the line between you're eye and the object?

All I can think is that the true size as it appears would come from holding the pencil perpendicular to line of sight. However, since you're using the measurement to transfer a length to a vertical plane (the paper), then it should be vertical.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....nope..sounds too tech for me..but i am sure there are several ppl on here who will be along soon to help you with this..

oh and welcome to drawspace
Kay

Um, this might be over my head, because I am not sure if I understand it completely, but this is my greatest understanding...

So, when you say perpendicular to the line of sight, you mean your view is that if you are looking down or up at something? Because this is what is confusing you? This way I think you would do perpendicular because if you took a picture of this scene, using your pencil would be a little easier. So if you were looking up at the moon, you would follow the plane from which your camera would be. In this case it might be helpful to use one of those frames, or your hands and then use your pencil in that frame.

OK, let me try an example.

You want to 'measure' the vertical size of 2 objects so as to transfer those lengths to your paper. The first object is right in front of you on the same level as your eye e.g. something on a shelf if you're sitting down. The other object is above the first, say a picture on a wall (so you'll have to look up at it).

To measure the first, I think we agree you'd extend your arm parallel with the ground, and hold the pencil perpendicular to your arm (and the ground).

Are we saying that to measure the higher object, we just swing the arm upwards keeping the pencil perpendicular to the *arm*, but now not perpendicular to the ground and then look along the arm again?

I just had a feeling that as you swing the arm up, the pencil might have to remain perpendicular to the ground...for some reason...

I think it depends what perspective you're trying to draw the thing. By simply swinging your arm up you'll retain your perspective in the drawing, probably by forshortening some of the edges; where on the other hand you'll have to get on the same level (or bring it down) to make it appear as if you're looking straight at it. Hope I understood the problem right, if not I apologize. I agree with the previous post, that a cardboard viewfinder frame is probably easier than using arm & pencil-measuring alone. Good luck!
---Mindy

I think you should do what works for you

John

I believe the magic bullet is to always hold your arm at the same distance from your eye. Straight out elbo locked. you are in a fixed possition so if the object is up and far away.. it does not matter you are trying to compare the width or it or distance from the horizon line to something you already have on the paper. I.E. the moon fits into the width of the house 6 times. The house is 1 pencil high and the moon is 1 1/2 penciles from the plane that the house sits on.
Does that make sense? I am not good at this, but this is how it was explained to me.

hi .....your assumption is correct,i f you are measuring the vertical plane,the pencil should be vertical,i know that this is a textbook method for drawing and measuring spacial relationships, but if i could suggest that you develope your skills in the technique of understanding negative and positive space,you would be able to capture the information accurately without having to use the pencil technique.it is easier and less time consuming,it will also enable you to measure detail efficiantly,for example when drawing a tree with branches,measuring each and every branch is a huge undertaking,with negative and positive space the task is relatively easy.There are some good lessons on the subject in the lessons section.

I hope this helps ,Regards Wayneo

OK, thanks team for persevering with trying to understand my confusion tactics (not quite sure how many have got what I'm going on about, nor that I understand them either).

I think I need to look into this more anyway. To be honest, at the moment, I don't really like the idea of relying on a frame/grid to look through, although I can see it would be easier.

However, thinking about the grid, that makes me think that the pencil should always be held vertical (as the grid is) - because a measurement e.g. the side of a picture high up on the wall, would be the projection (the size you see in the vertical plane of the grid) - which would be a different length if you tilted the grid back to be at right angles to the line you're looking along when looking up at the picture. And that's what would happen if you maintained the pencil at right angles to your arm and just swung it up and looked along it and didn't vary your wrist to keep the pencil vertical.

But then swinging you're arm changes the distance to the objects anyway.

Right then! Hope that's cleared everything up...any questions please pass them on to Kay.