Hello dear Board-Members,

I've only been here for a very short while, and I haven't seen a glimpse of a "problem" here so far, until today when a seemingly innocent thread caused someone to get very upset.
Also, there was another thread talking about how something had changed here (before my time, I guess) and people were leaving because of it. Apparently this isn't as friendly of a place anymore (I have a hard time seeing that, as this is a very calm place compared to, well, any other board on the internet).

This forum is filled with encouragement to every single member for every picture they upload, obviously this sounds very positive, but on the other hand it could also hamper one's development.

I have a computer engineering background, and I have always been a person of that sort, I can, pretty much without exceptions (can't think of any, but I can't exclude the possibility), discuss any topic without losing my cool. Things are very often "black and white" to me, they are either right or wrong. I have very difficult to take things personally, and even if I do (like pure personal insults), I take them rationally, evaluate their correctness and let both of us deal with the consequences.

Anyway, this means that I often have a hard time getting positive feedback, and/or not seeing the value in positive feedback (if everything is fine and dandy, how could things ever get any better?).
Therefore I "love" negative critique, because then I know what to improve.

I've been more and more interested in psychology during the last few years (but I'm just 24) and I know that some people are the complete opposite of me, infact, most people are to some extent
A lot of people are driven by direct encouragement, and it's obviously the safest way to go about things as encouragement itself is "positive".

However, when things come to such blurry things as "drawing", there isn't a scale where you can say "the result of this drawing is 7 out of 10, very good!" and then let the artist happily study more to get those last points the next time. To really get better at drawing, you must learn what is "just plain wrong" with one's picture.
Also one reason why this board might be as calm and encouraging might be that it could be dominated by "right-brain" people.
What I mean is that when for example you are working with computer programs, there is no way you would tell your co-worker "if you could change that '1' a little bit more to a '0', then I believe that the Airplane might crash a little bit less". It just won't happen. People say "You have made an error here, this should be a '0', otherwise the plane will crash in this state".
That kind of a comment is completely rational, but some people, driven by a lot of encouragement would think "I've made an error. I'm bad. I'm not good. They don't like me. I quit.", but it wasn't even about them, it was about a plane not crashing.

Aanyway, you get the picture.. I drifted off..

Someone just commented that Jeanette can be a bit "harsh" sometimes with her comments, to which I disagree, infact, I'm of the opposite opinion. When Jeanette "corrects" someone, she does it in the "maybe the plane will crash a little bit less"-way, instead of saying directly, without any Political correctness on what exactly is wrong and why.
Still some people think that Jeanette is too harsh, even though she tells most things in a very politically correct manner, meanwhile I just despise political correctness and want people to say straight out what they think.
It might seem that Jeanette is between two fires, but I think the reason she writes the way she does is that she just wants to be polite. It's not easy to be very good in something yourself and then "nicely" try to explain why someone's stick-figure doesn't look like a person, even though you think the person is making progress, it's still not as good as it could be.

I truly believe that the default mindsetting should be to be very careful on how you comment people's work, only because there are people out there who might get insulted (even though the comment was to help).
However, for people like me, it's very frustrating, because I want to learn to see what is wrong, why it's wrong and how to fix it.

So my suggestion is that there could be a special "tag" (for example a red text saying "Crit") that people can set to their signature, and there's a thread on the forum explaining what exactly it means.
It clearly would explain that it's nothing for the light hearted, that the critiques come from pro's and assume that you are a pro yourself, they don't care who you are or how many drawings you have made, they have the right to say that your drawing is "Just horribly way off!" etc.

Otherwise people will always hide their valid comments about my drawings into a lot of "fluff":
"I'm not an expert in this area myself, but I think that that lip coud be a bit more..."
instead of saying how it is:
"The left edge of that lip is off. It should be rounded to go more... blah blah"

This is how I'm used to things from the science world.


EDIT: (it was supposed to be "right-brain" people, of course)

You're sweet ukartist

This post has however not really anything to do with any conflicts, but a suggestion on how to allow "harsh" comments from pros for the sake of learning.

I'm with you ukartist. Like I said in another thread, we are saddened.

I just want to draw and KNOW how bad I am. I am such a beginner that I think everyone draws well and I draw badly but I will get better with practice and help..I go away every week end and I am getting ready to leave. I hope everyone makes up before I get back.

Teaspoon,

Thank you so very much for your words of wisdom. I am giving some thought to a response and will post a little later.

Again, thank you!

Brenda

Teaspoon,
I find a bit of irony in your name considering the subject of critique....the saying, " A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down" comes to mind...hehehehe I, like you, enjoy an honest critique. It isn't always easy to give an honest critique to some one you don't know...so it helps to offer areas that could be improved and comments about what you like in the work as well. Some can take the honesty with out bruising their egos and some are fragile and just stretching there wings learning to express themselves and in need of encouragement. I like your suggestion and would use a tag such as this. Many times I will sign off on a post with " critique always welcome"....I haven't posted a work in progress here yet but when I do I will want honest opinions and will take them as they are intended... to help me improve my art.

Another Newbie,
Laura

P.S.
I have posted some pieces from last year in the gallery and anyone who wishes to offer critique is welcome to do so. I always file this information away for future use!!!

Hello Laura!
Actually I wasn't aware of that saying (my native languages are Swedish & Finnish, living in Sweden), but nice remark!
It is true that a lot of people, like us newbies can be get very excited and happy when we think that we have "achieved" something, and when we show it to other people and getting bashed for it, obviously that could make a lot of people sad. Not only that, this board does -not- seem to be a board for people aiming for the stars, but where everybody can learn and do things in their own pace. And most importantly, have fun.
This is exactly why everyone -should- be really careful with what they say, because this place has such a mixed audience who just want to be happy! It's out of the question to say something that you think could insult someone.

You said that you usually would put a "comments please!" to something that you feel like showing to other people - I think 9 out of 10 such threads do already have such comments here. Still, as I said just above, a lot of people might feel bad of getting too direct remarks such as "I don't think the proportions are at all correct, for example measure the distance between... ... you can see that it's TWICE as big as it should be!" etc. Your "spoonful of sugar"-saying really does apply here, usually it's the best way to go among "strangers".
And in fact, problems like this apparently arose already even though I thought people have always being very careful with their words..!

And therefore, if you 'really' want pure honesty, in order to get around all these "fluffy"-comments on this board, you almost need somekind of a "contract", so that both sides understand "what they have gotten themselves into".

So that "signature" I was talking about could link to a thread which explains the rules. It might even require that each time someone who asks for help, needs to specify what exactly he/she wants people to comment:
* Every artist are allowed to draw exactly how they wish, and no one can change that. Therefore, if someone then asks for advice on "the lips", no one can comment the horrible "nose", because obviously the artist is happy with it as it is.

I think that's quite important. Even if you can take critisism, no one can tell you to change something that you haven't asked for (even if I don't personally mind such suggestions, I understand an Artist's will to create exactly what he/she wants, and nothing else).

In short, it's just about being able to be "professional" sometimes and not mix in feelings that don't even belong in the discussion.

And thanks for replying.

Teaspoon,

"Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down" is a song from the movie "Mary Poppins". It is a Disney movie.

I don't ask for "comments" ...they are nice, but usually just fluff. Not that they aren't a valid view and not that they aren't sincere.
I ask for critique...I want to know what other eyes see. You know sometimes we look at something so long that we can no longer see it objectively or something looks off and we just can't figure it out...what is bugging our eyes. I guess it all depends on what your objectives are.

If your truely wanting to improve you need to know where you can improve...what you need to work on...but, you are correct, it needs to be said in a constructive way.

I do have to disagree with you as far as pointing things out that someone may not be aware of...say they ask for help with the mouth and you see something that doesn't quite look right in another area.
The object is to be constructive...give advice without being destructive... "Here's what I would do to solve the problem with this area and hey you might want to take another look at that nostril...it doesn't look quite right...Hey, but GREAT job with the eyes" Offer advice if it is asked for but always find something positive to say as well!
Just my 2 cents...hehehe
Laura

People always get upset when I say that I have not seen Mary Poppins.. So, happy upsetting!



I agree with you completely. Especially with the part of getting blind when staring at your own things. It happens to me all the time, and the only way to get out of that is that someone makes you "snap out of it".


Again, couldn't agree more.


And finally, actually I agree with you on this as well for 100% (if you read my statement on that again, it says that I personally wouldn't mind...).
I just wanted to suggest that the "contract" would be written in a reserved way to protect the Artist. That IF someone writes that the he/she wants comments on the "lips", then the rule would be for people to comment the lips. IF the person wants everybody to "attack" every part of your drawing (like you and me would probably be interested of), again, it should be specifically stated.

Personally, "I couldn't care less" how harshly people commented my drawings, but that doesn't mean that I have the right to say that everyone should be treated in such a direct manner.
Okay, it could be enough that those who put that signature to their profiles "are in the wild", but I guess it wouldn't hurt that the rules include that you have to state what you need help on. Just say "everything" for accepting all critisism, and "lips" for lips.
Infact, it would even save other people's precious time to say that one only needs help with the lips and nothing more. The exact reasons for an Artist saying such a thing are irrelevant. For example, imagine a bit more experienced artist who actually knows what he/she is doing, might ask of a specific detail because it bugs him/her, but otherwise being very pleased with the work. That person has all the right to keep his/her artistic integrity and pride. How the finished piece will look like is none of our business unless it has been said otherwise.
Again, I wouldn't care myself, but since the possibility exists that someone might, it would be wrong of me to say that they shouldn't have that right.

Teaspoon

Teaspoon,

This is a very enjoyable discussion! Personally, I think I would find it difficult to keep my mouth shut if I saw something REALLY wrong with a picture...I look at it from my own perspective...if my objective is realism and there is something wrong that I'm not seeing...I would want to know. I would be grateful to hear someone tell me something looked off to them... It would be an opportunity to see it through someone elses eyes, and you know the greatest thing about critique is like another saying...."The great thing about advice is you can take it or leave it"... What I mean exactly is that If someone points out that something looks off... it gives me the opportunity to examine what they say in relation to my work and make my own decision regarding whether it works for me...does that make sense?

Take a look at the first piece that I posted here and you'll see what I mean. "La Nina" The eyes are actually oversized. When I realized they were larger than they should be...I took a long look and decided not to correct them. They enhanced the idea of her being all eyes, and I liked the effect.
I posted this picture at another forum and someone noticed this and so I commended them on their "good eyes" for catching that and then explained my decision to leave them as is.

Sorry to run on...
Laura

P.S. Not that you would and I definitely wouldn't, but I don't think it is appropriate for anyone to attack or bash another's work because we are all on our own journey with different objectives...we each see things and translate things in our own unique way. We should offer help the same way we would want it offered to us..with respect. Art is personal.

It does make sense and that's why I feel like you do on a strictly personal level, but I felt like I had to come up with some idea to make sure that people who need "integrity and pride" or for some other reason don't feel like getting "advice" on how to do their art unless they have asked for it would have the full right to do so.
So logically I thought that since the art belongs to the artist, it's the artist who should say what the other people are supposed to "do" with it. You know, just to be on the safe side.
Maybe this is being overly restrictive, and in that case it could also be done in the opposite way: People with the signature agree on direct critique on all aspects of one's art, UNLESS the Artist specifically states restrictions.
This would require that the artist makes a fully intentional choice of possibly stopping great suggestions that the artist him/herself has "missed". The people should only assume that the artist knows what he/she is doing and simply respect that. Does that make sense?


btw, all this could be done by creating another section in the forum called "TOUGH critique" with a sticky of these rules ontop..


Now I'll go see La Nina.
/Teaspoon

I like the second idea...only instead of "Tough Critique" I would suggest..."Constructive Critique" stating no attacks or bashing allowed. Only respectful and constructive critique permitted.

Laura

Obviously. I blame my bad english vocabulary .
No, but what I meant to say was that it needs to be apparent that it's not a place for "fluff". Warning people that if they think they would have a problem with someone telling them that there are "serious" flaws in what the person is trying to do, then they should avoid posting there, no matter whether they believe they would get such a comment or not. You need to be able to handle things in the right way to be able to deal with them "professionally".

Now it's time for this boy to get some sleep,

thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, Laura.

*still waiting for Brenda's comments, but continues doing so while sleeping *

Good night,
Janne "Teaspoon" Drawspaceson.

Yes, I agree completely! Pleasant Dreams!

Laura

I've enjoyed reading this thread and agree very much with the comments here.

Perhaps this method of safeguarding people's sensitivity regarding their art would work in the future. I also agree with the 'fluff' problem. It is common in many art forums unfortunately and hinders artistic growth and frustrates professionals.

Thank you for your input on this Janne and Laura.

Jeanette,

Your welcome and honestly it's the fluff that is so offputting to me...yes, I enjoy compliments just as much as the next person, but I don't put my artwork out there just to get my ego stroked. This place could be a wonderful place to truely communicate and learn from one another...if people respected one another enough to speak the truth in a constructive way. And in turn were able to handle the truth in a mature and repectful way. That means....taking a moment and really thinking about advice given and not allowing oneself to react but really absorbing what is said, comparing it to the work in question and then making a dicision about using the information or not.

Laura

This is very interesting. Can be basis for a new forum.

Without reading everything you two wrote, I will "cut in" a bit with my own experience ("experience" as in "things that happened to me" not "knowledge I accumulate"... well, more or less ).

Understanding visual arts in general depends on development of each person. Sometimes this is doubled by tallent (genetic predisposition to process / express visual information more rapidly and more accurate than average person-that's my definition, or even better, that's what I lack ).

Educated in a very exact system (math and physics), I was very confused when joining an art school and seeing a more relaxed, person-oriented system of education than just "doing your homework, then going to play". In order to improve, one has to be involved as personally as possible; it's not a means to an end, it's not "profit and loss", it's ... well it's art. At least that's how I see it.

This personal involvement, however, leads often to our "dark side", when things begin to mix. That's where the teacher comes in, putting things in order.

Why so much sugar ("political corectness"-like it!) in this site ? Everyone is learning. Some are obviously more advanced. You cannot stop the need to post; same with the need to comment (criticise). And you haven't seen nothing yet !

It's "the beginning of a beautiful friendship" with art.

Fatcat

PS Sorry for "patronizing"; green light for response / criticism is always on (well, until batteries run out !)

Getting personal...getting to know one another and enjoying the company...being playful...those are important to...if I'm misunderstanding your meaning speak up...but it is important to stay on track at the same time...it's important to get as much input from your peers as possible in order to learn! Not just the good...but the bad and even...gulp...the ugly....as well...hehehehe

Yes, friendship is good. What I mean is personal involvement, pursuance of your "inner artistic self", seeing who you are by seeing your approach of drawing, of how you see the exterior world, etc. That, to be philosophic.
On a more practical note, artistic world is where the egos inflamate the most. That you can observe the best in movie bussiness. In a factory, you just repair nuts and bolts and become jealous if competition sells better. Here...

I'll be back soon, boss is calling.
Fatcat

NOTE all readers: Jeanette has created a new (temporary?) thread for all "proper" critique on the board in the "General"-section.

I assume there will be a "real" critique-only section on the board eventually, but now it is a single thread over there at "General", in order to separate "serious art-related critique/issues" from "pure pleasure", if you know what I mean.

I guess people can voice their opinions about it here rather than in the actual critique-thread, to prevent it from going off-topic (or by creating a new thread about it.. This one is starting to get quite lengthy due to the discussions between me and Laura).

I think I understand what you're saying Fatcat. We can't stifle artistic creativity or even comment on it as it is so subjective.

I see critiques as commentary on technical aspects of drawing and how to correct something so that it looks as the artist intended it to. If you have a nose leaning to the left, if eyes are incorrectly placed, how to shade hair, how to make trees look realistic, etc etc.

I like the concept of a tiered level of critiques but I wonder if and how people would choose which one to participate in. Do you go for the softer, nicer critique or steel yourself for the reality based one? Human nature makes us go the easier, less painful route. Artistic souls hate putting their work on the line sometimes for others to pick apart - me included at times, but it is so necessary if you want to become the best you can be in the artistic field.

All comments AND critiques are welcome. Thanks again Janne for your eloquent language for the Critique thread.

*Edited I wrote this without realizing that I wasn't logged in duhhhh! Just in case you wondered who the 'mystery' guest was. Jeanette (IslanderNL)