If you are serious about your drawing and if you feel that what you have created is on the very limits of your skills, and need honest opinions on where you seem to be lacking and how to further improve - this is the place for you.

If you are only drawing for fun and feel like you just have accomplished something "above" your skills, this is not the place for getting encouragement. You will most likely get feedback on those things that are lacking.
Instead, you will get the most out of this section when you are honestly not completely happy with what you have achieved, and strive to go one step further.

The people giving critique here are often very experienced themselves and could have professional careers in art, so please have in mind that these people will give you their honest opinions about the art. There is rarely any point for you in explaining that you are just a beginner in some area - the critique is given on the art, not you.

Don't look for "mildening" circumstances, because again, it's about the art, not you. Nothing needs to be taken personally.

If you just want to show off your latest drawings that you are quite happy with to all the friends at Drawspace and get their opinions, do so in the "General"-section.

* Thanks to Teaspoon for valuable input on this subject. He's now the official 'scribe' for the forum

I'll post this here and with my drawings when I get a chance. When I upload a picture,no critique is requested!! They are prefect!! If you don't have something nice to say about them,,just look and go away!! Thanks and have a nice day!!

Wow, now THIS is more like it!! Kudos to everyone who helped put this ship back into the trade winds!!
Cheers.

hi everyone

i am working on this portrait of my sister and i am having trouble with it. i just dont think it looks like her and i just dont know what i am doing wrong. i know that the hair isnt right but i put it in because i thought it would help it look more like her. help me please!!! thanks.
Lori

I have to work right now Lori, but I'll get back to you later on this.
Meanwhile others are here that can comment as wel and help you.

thanks jeanette, i value your opinons. i can see some things now that i scanned them but still everyone let me know your opinions and tips, critiques. thanks
your right horsewhisper--scanning and seeing them side by side really helped--thanks
Lori

Lori I do portraits also ...they are my favorite thing to do .. and it is hard to get the look right .....I think you did a fine job ... but I am wondering did you crop only her face so you do not have any outside lines to overwhelm you ...her nose is very outlined .. thats ok but her eyes are dark lots of shadow in the eyes area to blend with the nose .. otherwise you may want to lighten up the lines on the nose ...and her hair is fuller in the pic ...but you did a great job on the hair ... I think it looks like her and I think your on the right track to a nice portrait...I hope this helps .. and cant wait to see this when you are done
Kim

thanks kim, i didnt mean for the nose to be so outlined, i noticed that too. i did make her eyes dark because it looked dark in the picture. maybe i did to dark. i also have seen alot of other things going on. i cant believe the hair. aaahhhh. her hair is so dark that i cant see it to do it properly so i tried to do the best i could by memory. she has some wild hair. beautiful but wild. i think it needs to be more pooofy (if thats a word) (it was the 80's, poofy was in) i am just not sure how to accomplish that. people have talked about grids to get perportions right. can someone tell me how one would do that? do it by ruler or by a photo program. thanks kim for your help. if you notice anything else let me know. i am going to work on it in a while an post an update.
Lori

racedolls, is this the only photo you have of her?
And most importantly, do you have the 'real' at hand?

Maybe it's just me, but I'd probably prefer to look at picture with a higher resolution to be able to see her face properly.
So maybe you can scan (head only) with higher resolution?
This would also make it easier to put a grid over it, if the picture is bigger.

Maybe this will help someone.

Lori,

I did a quick side by side in paint shop pro....just to show you the subtle differences between the two. In the photo she has her head tilted downward and in the drawing you have given her a more straight forward look. The ref. picture is so tiny...eek I hope this helps a wee bit!

Laura

P.S.
Wish I'ld had that photo earlier, teaspoon....hehhehehe.

You've been given some good advice here already Lori. And I think you've gotten a good likeness so far with this portrait. The head angle is off as Laura has said. Measurements are critical in portraiture to acheive a good likeness. Again Laura has shown some basic rules to follow in her lines so you can see where points on the face line up and also the angles that they follow.

Outlining around the nose is a problem area that you can avoid by using contrast and light to make the nose take shape,not a hard line. Define the shape of it and all features by shading alone and it will look much more natural.

One of the problems that you have is the quality of the reference photo which unfortunately isn't very clear. You can get features in and the shape and tilt of the head from it, the rest is a bit challenging as you haven't got clarity to work with. How large is the photo? I wouldn't work with anything less that 8 x 10 when using a photo reference for a portrait.

Now I know that's not always possible, especially if its a surprise gift for someone or if that is the reference they want you to use. All I can suggest is that you blow it up as big as possible, using just the head. The features will be grainy but you should be able to work around them and 'wing it' a bit on filling in the details, based on other photos of her or the real life version.

Curly hair is a challenge so you need to more suggest it, than try to draw every strand and curl. As you can't see detail, simply find another photo of her with a similar light source or even similar hair styles from another person just to get the idea of how to draw the light and shadows.

I've attached a drawing that I did of a person with curly hair so you can see how I approach it. It may help you get an idea of where to start on that mass of curls.

Keep going with it, it will be wonderful.

[attachmentid=642]

I have never done grid so i have no clue as to how you go about it .. but I am sure many here have done it and will be willing to help you out .

thanks teaspoon, i printed out the image, it is grainy but i think its better than the ones i tried to enlarge. i think i might have a 8x10 somewhere, i will have to look. i dont think its the same pose. i just really like how she had her head tilted in this one.
laura--thanks to you to, now i see the guide lines that really helps alot. i also printed that out.
i agree jeanette, i really need a bigger reference. and thank you for the hair reference. i think i can apply this to her. and i will work on that nose. i really didnt mean for that to go so dark like that, an outline, i was getting so aggrivated by it, it just go darker and darker.
thanks everyone--these are some really great tips and great help. i really appriciate it. and i am off to work out all these things. i will post a hopefully improved picture. so be ready for more critiquing! (i sure hope you guys dont get sick of me)
Lori

Because Racedoll and Kim wondered about the grid-drawing, I made this little thing.

Racedoll, I think I have an even better picture for you.. I used it to demonstrate this, so you could actually print this out and try for yourself. And actually I think if you just use it for the absolute general lines in the beginning, your drawing will come out very nicely!
(note that I haven't used this method before myself (because I usually don't even draw ).
So obviously this will be a proof that working with grids are very easy and very effective.

But as a quick example, I can show you that even an idiot like myself can get the proportions right with the grid technique.

Okay, first we put a grid over the photo (Racedoll, you could print this out and try for yourself!):

[attachmentid=645]

Now, we make a grid to a white sheet, and just start "copying" each square at a time.
If you study one square, you can see that there is very little "information" on each, and it is easy to estimate angles & proportions of the lines within one square as you have the surrounding edges of the square to use as a "ruler".
Don't try looking at the information in the squares around the square you are working on at the moment - that would ruin the purpose with the squares.
Just imagine that little square being the whole photo, and nothing else exists in the universe.

Here's a quick sketch:
[attachmentid=646]

Okay, it probably doesn't look like much, because it's a turbo-sketch and it's done by a someone who doesn't really know what he is doing.

Anyway, now comes the good part. I will put my drawing over the photo, and you can see that it's a "perfect" start for the face, the proportions and angles are exactly like they should be:
[attachmentid=647]

It looks like I would have drawn on a transparent paper, holding it over the photo, but I didn't.

Note that you can draw the squares on your own paper any size you want, and let your drawing be a magnified version of any picture.

Well I guess it would help if I posted it in the write place....Pick away teacher Another I did for the draw challenge.

wow teaspoon that is a great help. thank you. thanks everyone. you guys are great.
brian david-- the paper weight i think is great. i tried that one too and mine turned out awful. i might take another stab at it though. but it really looks great to me.
Lori

Brian David,

If I had the time to participate in this challenge that is the one I would have chosen! You have a good range of the deeper tones,but what would really make it POP would be some lighter tones and highlights!!! You could take an eraser to pull out some of the highlights!!! Over all you did a good job with a difficult subject!

Laura

Grids are fabulous tools to get proportion right. They really do help,especially in portraiture. And they will also enable you to enlarge your image even if you use that small photo. Simply make the corresponding number of squares on your paper larger and your image will increase in size when you transfer it.

Great stuff Lori, I can't wait to see you get stuck into this now!

Brian, thanks for posting your image here. I think you've done a really wonderful job with a very complex image. The breakdown of shapes shows that you really are observing well and translating what you see. That in itself, is something to be very proud of as it means the right side of your brain is kicking in and letting you see just shapes. This image is quite good for that, as it isn't really recognizable as something your brain can label, therefore it lets you get on with drawing instead of arguing with you!

The thing that springs out at me is the hard lines in the image. In reality there are no lines that separate areas of light and contrast. The tone itself is what indicates the differences. Does that make sense? Try using a chisel edge of your pencil to create the shading and let yourself shade gently up to the lighter area and don't rely on a line to show the differences.

I know your cartoons are probably what drives this, but to make a drawing turn into realism, the lines do need to go.

BrianD great job .. I will not even go there with that picture .. I did the house and the playground and the dead flower .. I wont even try that one it looks too hard . lol and you did a wonderful job with it

Not sure if I am doing this right but could I get some critiques on this drawing thanks in advance

John

[attachmentid=656]

This is another drawing I have, would appreciate any and all critiques

Thanks

John G

[attachmentid=658]

Lori....Thanks for your comment. I think one thing I have learned is what you may think is bad may be good to others.

Laura....Thanks for your help I see what you mean. And I just bought a new pencil set and a GIANT eraser pleasure to meet you also, I admire your work.


Jeanette..... I found your comments very interesting. I have to limit those hard lines to cartoons. You are a bundle of help and knowledge....Thanks so much.


Kim....Thanks for your comment . Not trying to be a fluff but I admire your work, I think you could probably draw anything.

John, these are very very good portraits. You have excellent skills in shading and the hair is very well rendered.

I'll provide my comments on the first drawing. I believe the top half of the man's head is too long. If you measure the human head you'll find that on average the length from the top of the head to the eyes and the eyes to the bottom of the chin are equal. I'm not sure whether its the angle of the head that throws it off visually or if it actually is too long from the eyes to the top of the head.

The eyes look a little off to me and I've been trying to figure out why. I think it is because they are more defined than the rest of the image and darker. The outlining, especially on the right hand eye (viewer's right) draws my attention to it too much so you may like to see if you can soften that.

I'll have to wait a little to review the second portrait as my computer say 'server not found' when I go to view it, but it was there previously. A little glitch.

I will be back!

I have received wonderful encouragement and kind words, now I would like to hear in which direction to head with my drawing. I am assuming it is going to be in the direction of shading and proportion. Please comment.
Paulette[attachmentid=672][attachmentid=673][attachmentid=674]

John: I wish I was that good!

Anyway, I have a problem with Marilyn. Again it's an eye-issue (like Jeanette thought about the first picture).

To me, the difference in sizes between the two eyes are very significant.
First I thought that the eye on the left (from our view) is just too big, but then when I covered up the left side of the face (from our view) I noticed that the right side doesn't look like Marilyn as much as the left side. So I guess I would start with actually making the eye on the right-side a bit bigger.
The eye on the left sure says "Marilyn", but maybe it too is a bit too big and perhaps "popping out" just a bit too much?

That's just my view on what I believe is slightly "off" compared to the true Marilyn.
Maybe someone else can say which way to actually go. All I know is that -something- can be done to the eyes!

John... I think your shading is very nice ....the man the clothes needed more detail .. that tends to be the boring part of a portrait ..but its a important part also .. I am guilty of the same thing .
the woman her one eye is off .. other than that I saw nothing wrong with that drawing .. as I said your shading is very good ..Jeanette and the other can offer more advice ...they are very good at what they do .
Paulette .. the head and the liquid thing those are hard pictures to draw .. so i have a hard time saying where you went wrong cause .. I like your drawings ...maybe a bit more detail on the flower ...some highlights and deeper tones ...but when I look at all your drawings .. I would have to say .. good job ! I had a hard time with the flower myself .. and the liquid i did not even try lol ....so you were brave lol .

Back again and now for the second image John. Again, your skills in shading are impressive as is the work on the hair. You have the technique down well, just some proportion details need to be adjusted a bit.

Teaspoon and Kim have provided some good advice on this image already. And I agree with their comments. The subject's left eye is significantly larger than the right which throws things off. Also watch the size of the irises and pupils. They should be the same size in each eye and perfectly round. As well if I drew a straight line across at whatever angle, the irises should be at the same point on the line and I don't think they are here.

The teeth in the mouth are a little too defined. Teeth are tricky and always less is more with rendering them. Try to avoid outlining them and leave only the brightest white of your paper for tiny highlights on the tooth.

Around the hairline, the line is a bit hard and needs to be softened so that the hair looks as if it is growing from the skin. Try light individual lines from the point where the hair grows to soften the effect there.

These are ambitious portraits and it can be difficult to give good advice without seeing the reference image as well to compare to. However, I know you are on the right track and have the skills to successfully carry these off well. Just tweak a little more, make sure to measure and align points on the face to get proportion correct and avoid hard lines. You're well on your way!

Hi Paulette, gosh you've done THREE images from the challenge and I've only just gotten started on one!

Shading and proportion...well, I believe you are moving in the right direction on these areas in your drawings. What I see here is that you can observe well and get that down onto paper well. I don't see a lot wrong with proportion in your images. Measuring, finding points of reference and careful observation is what provides correct proportion in drawings. That seems to be there in these drawings.

What I do see are some shading issues however. These drawings are more like sketches and that's just fine if that is the effect you are looking for. Loose lines and outlined forms have a place in art and stand on their own. If you are looking for realism in your work (and most artists are in this forum) then careful attention must be paid to creating value map drawings before you even consider adding shading to your subject.

The rose for instance is a great image and would stand alone as a line drawing. Then you added some shading. The shading is weak in that it is all the same tone more or less so one area bleeds into another and the image looks a little flat. Shading eliminates hard lines. You use your pencil to shade up to the next shade tone, be it light or dark and the tone itself creates the shape, not the line.

You've done better with shading on the liquid 'thing' . There is some good shading there and tones are developing, then you revert to lines again which changes the context of the image.

It is similar again with the portrait of the young man. You have the shapes and tilt of the head correct, then the shading seems as if you started off well then lost interest and just slopped lines on to fill space. Again, the shading needs to vary in tones from very light to very dark to give that 2 dimensional effect.

Have you ever done a tonal scale? Its a great exercise that will really help you see the shades that your pencil can achieve. Then you can hold the finished chart to your drawing and see just what you need pencil wise or pressure wise to get those darks.

Take a piece of paper and make a 10 inch x 1 inch rectangle on your paper. Mark your rectangle into 10 inch long lengths. Choose a pencil - a 2B is a good one to begin with or an HB if you don't have a 2B and starting at one end of the rectangle, fill in each square starting at the lightest shade you can make with your pencil and progress up the scale pressing slightly harder with each square so that you increase depth of tone of the square til you reach the final and darkest you can go.

Then to the same again, using a full range of pencils - F - 6 or 8B - whatever you have on hand. If you only have 4 pencils, then use 4. If you have 10, use all of them. Using the same pressure with each pencil, create the tonal scale using simply the hardness or softness of the pencils to create the depth of tone.

Also, compare the greyscale of the original reference next to your drawing. Instantly you will see that you can go much darker in areas to get the effect that you want.

You have the skills and the eye to do this as is proven here. Practice and going darker and using the full range of tones in your pencil will help you a lot.

Thank you Jeanette,
You caught me on the rose. The Paperweight was so detailed that I tried to just quickly sketch the rose. Do I understand correctly...if it was just a sketch that I should not have shaded it? Would you have an example to show me?
I have no excuses for the boy my drawing there reminds me more of when I was doodling a teacher while bored in school. If I get nothing else out of this it will be that my doodling will be better. lol.
When you talk about mapping... would you mean that I should do a quick sketch, write in the values that I want and then start the actual drawing?
I am going to make the tonal scale my next project. I finally spent some serious time with the lessons so I think that is going to help also.
Thank you for all your help I can't wait to show how I'm going to improve. Well assuming I can find some patience along the way.lol
Paulette

Paulette, a sketch can be something quite detailed but usually its loose; lines on paper without a lot of substance to it. As a sketch you could have still shaded it. I guess the rose is as if you are caught in the middle of a decision. Should I do a line drawing or should I do a complete drawing? I'll provide some examples when I get home. I'm finished for the day now but at work.

As for the value mapping. Its like the blueprint for a drawing and shows where the shapes of tones are. My master line drawing is quite detailed and shows each area of tone as a shape so it looks almost like a jigsaw puzzle in some ways. I'll show you an example of that too when I get home.

You're doing great. Recognizing some of your areas of weakness is a BIG plus. Practicing every day will help a lot too. Do your value scale, I'd love to see it when you finish. And I think it will really show you how versatile your pencils are as tools to complete your drawings.

I will be watching this tread with a close eye!!

as i would like to learn how to do value mapping and with the tonal scale does brenda have a lesson on this that i can read?

Oh Jeanette, you have been drawing for 30 years wow i would be 66 in 30 years time are man time flys

First thank you all for the nice comments, I started doing this about two months ago, never had the time to draw with my busy life, until a freind adviced me to do something rather than just work. It been relaxing and fun, there is so much to learn.

IslanderNL:
Looking at the first picture I agree with you some how when I was doing it, it looked ok, but I can certainly see it after you pointed it out. The re-work is going to be a challenge. I will try toning the right eye down and see what happens, a lot easer to do than the first. Again thank you for the great comments.

Teaspoon: Again right on with the money with comments on the eyes, boy it must have been late when I was doing it. I’ll try and correct it and see what happens. Thank you for the great comments

Kim: Your right I kind of gave up when I got to the clothing, this drawing is a practice drawing for a drawing I am doing of my father and was working on other areas.

Gang thank you very much for all the help, this site and the people are awesome.

John G

You are welcome john I hope to see more of your work . good luck

Ukartist, Brenda does have a value scale lesson in hatching. Here's the link:
http://www.drawspace.com/lessons/lesson.php?id=f01

If you want to follow the directions I gave Paulette you can make your own value scale, using any type of shading that you like, from hatching to circulism. I've attached a couple of examples of value scales that I have used as demos in classes that I've taught, so you can get an idea of how they look. Sorry for the bad scans as they were just taken with a digital camera and in artificial light, it never is quite right.

[attachmentid=681] [attachmentid=682]

* edited to include the value drawing so you can see what I mean by it. I complete a full line drawing and add all the shapes of the different areas of shading so I can see them clearly.

[attachmentid=685]

John,

Jeanette and everyone here has given you alot of good advice...I thought I might throw in a visual side by side to help you out. I like doing these for people...it helps me improve my ability to see things in my own work and I'm much better at showing then telling...hehehehe...I darkend the picture with one touch adjustment in paintshop pro and then I went back in pulled the highlites out of the hair whiskers and eyes as well as throwing some darker accents into the hair and darkening the shadows under the left eyebrow...I also indicated the lower lid on the left and darkened the check on the left as well. In addition I darkened around the hairline creating the illusion that it was farther back from the viewer...I think that is what Jeanette was seeing that made it appear to be off proportionately...it could still be a bit off but the darker shading helps....I had to look at what I did before I could describe everything to you...sorry the size of the adjusted one is smaller...I did something wrong when I resized it and said the heck with it cause I couldn't get it the way I wanted...urgh!



Laura

Jeanette,
Here is my tonal scale. It is different than what you have shown but I think in the same vein. I need more practise and I'll try it the way that you have. Let me know what you think.
Thank you Paulette[attachmentid=686]

Excellent job Paulette. You've got good tonal changes and you can keep this as a reference now so you know the range of tones your pencils can produce.

My scale was done using circulism - tiny circles overlapping to give a smooth shading. Everyone shades differently and the purpose of the value scales is simply to make you aware of the differences in pencils and how pressure can affect the tone that you put down on paper.

I think its a great exercise that everyone should do when starting out.

Thank you Jeanette for your help am greatfull

what a difference Laura. that is awesome. i didnt relize that would make such a difference. i told my son about that and he did some things for me. i think i will be bugging him alot. (until he shows me how to do it)
thanks for the info
Lori

Lori,

Yes, I'm still just learning what I can do in paint shop pro...but it is so much easier to experiment with my work on the computer and then adjust the real thing!!! I also like to compare my proportions with it. Just think what the masters could have done with a computer!

Laura

Everyone here give such good advice .... I always feel so dumb because I have had no art classes and dont know about the grey scale or the graphs ...I learn as i set here and read ...thank you .

Laura

Thank you for taking the time in fixing the drawing. It really helps to see what the drawing needs. A friend of mine suggest making a Xerox copy of the drawing, then making changes on the copy to preserve the drawing from a lot of re-work.

John G

John,

That is an excellent idea...especially if you don't have psp to play with!!!


Kim,

Don't put yourself down, sweetpea!!! I've learned more from trial and error than anything else...many can tell you what to do, but only you can teach yourself!!!

Laura

Laura's a whizkid with the computer tweaking, and its a really good tool. I have Adobe Photoshop, but haven't had much time to experiment with it much.
You can make a transparent image of the original and place your drawing over it to see where you went wrong or right too. That can be done as long as both images are the same size and on a computer you can ensure that they are sized that way. I've done it once on photoshop but I couldn't begin to tell you how to do so

Copying the image and playing with the copy first before commiting yourself to changes on the original is a good way to learn and experiment.

Kim, you know about these things now and can put them to use. We all build our skills over time putting little bits of information into place as we get them. You're doing beautifully, don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

Thank you ... I am a beginner to the tech way of art .. I have always just picked up a pencil and started doodling ....then I started moving past that and drawing ....I was never taught how to shade the right way and do portraits by lines .. I guess thats where I was saying i was dumb .. but I am learning so much from everyone here ... Laura with your detail.. venus and her flowers ...and jeanette with everything she does it turns out just right ..and so many more talented people here ...everyday i seem to learn more and more .

Kim you are NOT DUMB! I WILL SLAP YOU IF YOU SAY THAT AGAIN JK we are all equal and we are all at diffrent stages and we are all here to help each other love ya kim

aweee .. thank you sweetie

Your welcome anytime!!

kim you have really helped me in my work. i dont think your dumb at all. you have experience and that really helps and a good eye which always helps.
i am still working on the improved portrait-- i think it looks alot better, the perportions look good but i still dont think it looks like her. i think its the shape of the eyes, being such a small picture i cant get the shape just right and i cant find the 8x10 i have of her wedding. i do have other pictures so i might try to tweak with it a little more and see what i come up with and then i will post it tomarrow and get everyones opinons again if no one minds. my husband says it looks like me, which would make sense seeing how where are sisters. i also wonder if its the hair, not being dark enough and her skin tone is darker than mine. but i didnt think we looked alike either. thanks
Lori

Lori ... thank you very much ... keep trying and if you have to put it down for a few days..i have done that and came back to it and all of a sudden i saw it in a different way and made the changes I needed .good luck with it and I cant wait to see it done .