Go ahead, be honest.

I should preface this by saying it isn't important to me whether what I do is considered art or copying. Every drawing I have submitted to this site is from a photograph. The photographer has already set up the composition for me, all I'm doing is drawing what I see.

Theoretical question: should I refrain from submitting my work into an art competition?

If not, why not? How is drawing from a photograph different from drawing from life? Sure, the photographer set up the composition, but if I'm drawing a live landscape, I still have nothing to do with the composition - nature did it.

Like I said, go ahead and be honest. If what I do isn't art, I'm curious why.

HJosh

PS I don't trace (that's plainly obvious if you were to put one of my images over the photo), but what if I did?

I don't think you are not an artist. I want to share my own experience here;
I haven't been trained in fine arts. I am just interested in expressing myself in colours and shapes. A few years ago I started painting pictures (with oils). As my eye is not trained to see things in lines and shades I was very unsuccessful at transferring what I see on to the canvas. I didn't have the patience to go through that hatching and crossing and so on that art students endure, either. What I did was take a photo of what I wanted to draw, trace it on the canvas and colour it.
For example; let's say I want to make a picture of a girl lying alone in the forest; I just find a picture of the forest, then a picture of a lying girl and I put them together. (It is not as easy as it sounds because it is very difficult to find two pictures which have matching perspectives) I trace them on the canvas and then I paint it. The result is a completely different picture than the original photographs.
The question why I do it that way: well, I am not a trained professional who can imagine and draw the proportions of a lying girl and I can't wait to have good pictures. I am trying to develop myself but why not have wonderful pictures during the process? Seeing the results motivates me to continue making pictures. Moreover I feel that I am learning lots about perspective, colour and shade while trying to get images resemble to the photograph.
So go ahead, there's nothing wrong with painting from photographs.

Let's say you were able to draw proportions etc correctly - isn't that the same as tracing, but with your mind? If I could get the likeness of an image perfectly just by looking at it, how other than effort is this different than tracing?

Well Tracing is outlining all detail or just the outline of a drawing and using the outline to work from ....is it cheating .. I can not say ..does it help you advance in your skill my answer would have to be no ...so in away your cheating yourself from the growth you would get if you tried to do it on your own .
you ask is it no different then tracing to do so with your mind the likeness of a image perfectly ....well to do it perfectly I would think some tracing is being used ..but I have seen some work from some of these artist that are almost right on or at least they sure look it ...not sure how one can tell if it is exact but they look very very close ...that is skill ...and it takes alot of practice to get there ..myself I do portraits but they are not as perfect as so many others out there ..I just keep trying ..I would be afraid to trace because not being my lines to start with I am not sure I could get the shading and all right because then the shading would not be mine as well ....lol that was a bit confusing lol

And last even if you look at a picture and draw it ...that still counts ...alot of people do that for inspiration .. I do it as well I just do it in my own style and use the photo as a tool ....drawing from the imagination is pretty hard for alot of people .

Hope this helps

I think you are an artist - not matter what your references are! I draw from photographic reference all the time. I do try to sprinkle in life drawing when I can, but really, when was the last time you could get a child, cat, dog to sit still for an hour while you study its shapes and tones?

Yes, absolutely yes, you should enter your work into competition!

I think that if you hold the title of artist it is a moot point. art should be how you feel and how it makes you feel. enjoying the process as much as the result. the title itself is useless.

do not enter into a contest any resulting artwork from a photograph you did not take.

i do not approve of tracing since you learn nothing from it but I do think graphing is ok. graphing was even used by some of the great masters. this has been proven before.

Woops! Good point - make sure the photos are your own! Photography makes for a great second hobby!

Hi, Josh.To answer your question, your portraits have a unique style so, in my opinion, you are an artist; these days almost all artists draw, paint from printed images, Rembrandt era is gone.
An artist should have the ability of seeing proportions with his eyes mostly, and here i agree with Kim about skill and developing one's ability of drawing unattended by tools, measuring, grids, etc.
What you can do to test yourself and your ability to render life is to set up a still life composition and try to draw it, no photo, no other people composition.It also helps if you have masks, some ethnic folkart, like african, asian masks.Drawing them from life will give you an idea of your real abilities as a face artist.

Yet, the surest way to learn, practice and test your skills as an artist is a self portrait in front of the mirror.You will be amazed how much is to learn from this.

According to David Hockney, tracing was used by the greats, as far back as 1430.

If I shouldn't enter a picture drawn from a photo I did not take, here's my question: at what point should my art be excluded from a competition, and why?

1. I draw a tree from my neighbors yard. It's not my tree, and I had nothing to do with creating it.

2. I take a picture of the tree in my neighbor's yard, and draw from that.

3. My wife takes a picture of the tree, and I draw from that picture.

4. My wife takes a picture of the neighbor's tree, posts it on Flickr, and I draw from that picture.

5. A professional photographer takes a picture of the neighbor's tree, and I draw from that picture.

6. My wife takes a picture of a tree I've never seen before, and I draw from that picture.

7. A professional photographer takes a picture of a tree I've never seen before, and I draw from that picture.

As far as learning goes, I agree 100%. I have drawn from 3d objects, and I believe doing so has helped me tremendously. As far as mirror drawing goes, here's what I look like:

Add one more to the theoreticals:

If the argument against submitting to contest a drawing of a photo not taken by me is that I had nothing to do with the creation of the composition, what about a drawing of my neighbor's garden? My neighbor created the "art," I'm just drawing it. What is the difference?

The questions and controversy that have arisen over entering work into exhibitions which was done from photos from other people is valid. All the variants of the points you make are just that, variants of the same point.

The objection to entering art into competition that was done from freely available online images was the point exhibition organizers were trying to make I believe. It could be conceivable that 3 artists could choose the same photo and each draw from it. Yes, the art would be different in each case, but the concept of originality would be lost. Would you really want to enter an exhibition and find 3 more renderings of the same reference that you used there in various mediums? Most artists would be horrified and embarrassed.

If you have permission to use a photo someone else has taken, or if you've taken it yourself, there's no problem. If you draw your neighbour's garden, its through your eyes. It may be his design, but your view point, composition, colour etc. are yours alone. Now if you take this same principle and apply it to a photo so that the original photo is unrecognizable as the reference source, it may be acceptable. Art exhibition organizers are tightening restrictions on what reference resources are acceptable and, to me, the rules make sense.

Great topic HJosh.

What about......a photographer takes a photo of a piece of your artwork and then enters it in a photography competition...??

Yes I think you are an artist, and a good one.

Hi Hjosh, I just took a look at your gallery and YES you are an artist!!

I agree with the others too.
Photography is also an art, and I think Tammy's question answers to your points very well.

This whole discussion reminds me of one which you can find in the general forums called "Is it cheating?" Check that out, it is a very interesting slant on this same idea.

I thought Josh asked whether he is an artist or not.The rest is secondary.

To me neither the title nor the contests are relevant for what i do, but the feedback that I receive from people when they see what i produce.

I agree wholeheartedly, Elena. Drawing for me is a meditative mental state where I see things as they really are, not what I assume them to be. Needless to say, Drawing From The Right Side of the Brain is sort of my bible...

The objective of this thread was to raise an uncomfortable philosophical question (my favorite kind). Forget the tracing tangent for a moment, and let's stick to drawing from a photo vs drawing from life. I understand (and believe in) the educational benefits of drawing from life; let's just stick to the artistic merit of the end product.

If I draw a photo, I'm drawing something that someone else created. But it's the same thing if I draw a house - someone else created that scene. If I draw a landscape, I'm drawing something that nature/god/flying spaghetti monster/whatever created. I had nothing to do with it. Essentially, every piece of art is a collaboration.

As I was writing this out, I stumbled upon one main difference between drawing from life and drawing from a photo taken by someone else- the photographer, not me, captured the moment. To be the one to capture the moment must be an important part in determining the legitimacy of a piece of art, and something I haven't really even begun to explore.

Is there a Moment Capturing 101 class somewhere?

This thread has now given me cause to add yet another subject I will never debate about in a public way.. Religion, Politics and now Legitimate Art..Not one of these subjects will ever in a million years be agreed upon..

I couldn't help but say something..

I feel somewhat better since hjosh's last comment..

_{"As I was writing this out, I stumbled upon one main difference between drawing from life and drawing from a photo taken by someone else- the photographer, not me, captured the moment. To be the one to capture the moment must be an important part in determining the legitimacy of a piece of art, and something I haven't really even begun to explore."}

Ok, you obviously did not check out the forum "Is it cheating" but that's ok. From your posts it seems you just want validation for your method. I have to agree with texaslady_59. You will never have agreement on this subject.

These types of subjects cause this very same reaction ....people will as you said will never have a agreement on this subject lol ....so lets agree to disagree

I should have titled the thread differently - sounds like I'm bitter.

I did read a lot of the "cheating" thread, it just all seems a little ambiguous. I like consistency and clear definitions. I'm a real pain that way.

Speaking of being a pain, I hope no one interpreted any of my posts to be confrontational in any way. I don't like emoticons, and I've been accused in the past of being a little snippy.

Thanks, everyone, for letting me bounce my thoughts off of you.

There's nothing like a healthy debate about something that affects you strongly. Thought provoking questions are always welcome.

Snippy? Nawwwwww, we still love you.