Hi

Im from Romania, a 3'rd world country with not much art activity. I've always liked drawing but I lacked the talent. All my life my parents (who are painters themselves), my teachers from kindergarten through highschool, they told me repeatedly that I have no talent. So I gave up, but I still liked drawing. On the internet I first found the Gluck Method, but I could not afford their 300$ deluxe package. I gre disheartened when he said his method was the only one that works without talent. Tried to find their DVD's on demonoid but to no avail.
I found this forum and saw it and it is very interesting, I might study the lessons here. Art supplies are very rare where I live, I have several pencils, 2B, 5B, 6B and I also found at a store sketchbooks.
I dunno, I want a professionals opinion, a university teachers or someone who really knows what he's talking about. Basicly I have two questions.

Do you need talent to draw?
Why does the Gluck guy affirm that his method is the only one that works? I sense a marketing ploy, but ... anyone else?

first let me welcome you to drawspace then let me say that was a terrible thing to say to for anyone to say to you..just bring a pencil and some paper..take a peek at the lessons and join in at the forum..

In my opinion if you enjoy drawing then you have enough talent to continue developing. No one can accuragely evaluate your level of talent but you. I don't know of any accurate and universally scale of measuring talent until it is developed through lots of practice. It is almost like some thing that is there inside you but you can't really know how much you have until you practice and develop it. Evaluate your own progress and build your own confidence. If you enjoy your drawings then others will also. You just have to find the people who can appreciate what you appreciate. I am confident you will recieve encouragement here at Drawspace regardless what level of talent you have.

Bobby.

talent is not everything - you need above all to have fun drawing and practice, practice, practice ...and Drawspace is the best Exercise-Center that I know

Thanks for the warm welcome.
You have not quite answered my questions though ...
So, should I understand that talent is after all a required thing?

The simple answer is, yes, talent is required. And, the fact that you enjoy drawing is evidence you have a "measure" of talent. Only you can decide how much effort you apply to develop it, and how much confidence you want to have in your abilities. No one can make these decisions for you. Talent depends a lot on self-confidence. This is a decision. If you listen to people who have a negative opinion you will lose confidence.

Well, that's a conflicting ideea with what Brenda is stating I guess.

Hi, tegramon.Where exactly in Romania do you live?I am myself a Romanian, I know about art life in Romania, the teaching of art in Romanian schools before 1989 and can tell you that i find hard to believe that a person with both parents painters was not encouraged to draw or didn't absorb from the art atmosphere of home.In this field there are no philosophical questions like I have talent or not. You love drawing or are indiferent to it.
Talent is manifested when you exercize your faculties, in this case eye hand coordination.I don't know your age but the ability to draw shows up early, by 12-14 you can produce beautiful art.
Any amount of work in developing the skills of drawing will get you closer to producing works that you can add to your gallery and members of this site, many fine art painters and artists can evaluate and counsel you.

The talent you are asking for a definition is that ability to render faster and better a drawing than others.So a person who can draw a realistic cat from the first attempt -as opposed to one who will take months or years in achieving that performance- this person you can call talented.
Let's see you in challenges here on DS, drawing or sketching the same picture with other members, doing the lessons from the site, working everyday and then one can say whether you can draw or not.
About art supplies, you say that your parents are both painters and then you say that you cannot find art supplies.Very strange!
As strange as your statement that Romania is a third world country. So what are Bolivia or Congo or Indonesia then?

I was told you have to be born with some magic to draw and paint.. I believed that and never tried till I was 40 yeas old.
Anyone can do ANYTHING if they really want to and put forth the effort, there is nothing you can not learn to do, it may take longer with one person than another, that is when they say.."That is a born in tallent" but NO, you don't need to have talent in my book. You will become talented as you progress in learning but no magic is required.. I am proof of that!
This subject has been discussed in detail in the past, you will see many people disagree on subjects like these that are open to interpretation. Work at it and do it to please NO ONE BUT YOURSELF!!

If you really enjoy drawing or painting, that's a talent by itself. It's a gift to love doing something in this beautiful bit sometimes strange and scary world.
When people say "you have no talent", they usually say this, warning you not to rely on drawing to earn your living(and, of course, they are not always right, even though they might be meaning well), or when they have to decide for a limited number of job vacancies or amongst students' applications.
In this forum, you are free to learn, study and enjoy drawing, the only rule, as far as I can see, is to be tolerant and not abusive to the participants.
You can post in the "critiques' thread if you want some criticism to help you develop.

I am not sure about the 3 world definition - I think people in the 3rd world do not have access to whatever forum and are too concerned with their existence minimum to ponder over the question of talent. I know that Bucarest in the beginning of the 20th century was called ' the Small Paris', so I am sure if you look deep into your country's art history you'll find lots of inspiration and tradition.

So, freely join in, draw and enjoy!

I'll repost what I wrote in a couple of similar previous threads -

Drawing is a skill - it is learnable, it is teachable.

You have to want to do it - exactly the same as any other skill which requires considerable work and practice.

But this idea that some people are "talented" - that it just somehow comes to them magically - is nonsense - and it is important that people realise that it's nonsense.

The best drawers I know (and I am friends with some really world-class artists) are people who put in an enormous amount of time at it. What non-artists see as "talent" is actually the result of a great deal of persistent application, of hard work. I spent a weekend in the company of one such world-class artist, last year, while he briefly dropped into the UK to find a London gallery to represent him - and we spent the weekend going round the National Gallery and Tate Britain - and he drew, continuously.

While only a few will make really exceptional art (as in any field of endeavour), I firmly believe that the vast majority of people can learn the skills involved in drawing and painting to quite a high degree.

In the 18th-19thC being able to draw pretty well was a standard accomplishment expected of anyone who was educated. The standard of drawing commonplace among the schooled was typically (much!) higher than those at art-schools now!

I'll repeat - drawing, and painting, are teachable, learnable skills (its just that its an area mostly badly taught - oddly, some of the best art-resources now available are in the form of online forums such as Drawspace).

Dave

Hey ElenaM

I am from Brasov. I have won an art contest in photography, I have excellent good eye for composition and color, as one of the people judging were saying. But photography is very much different from drawing!
My parents gave up drawing when I was smaller due to realizing the fact that one cannot survive on it alone. Or perhaps they are not very good? I do like their art, very salvadorish like. My main reason of why I say Romania is really a third world country is basicly everything is so hard to find, and when you do find it, usually, you'll have to sell a leg to get it. Plus the political system, and the slow turkisation of the country ... but that's a different story!
Yeah, I love drawing. I like to doodle for hourse in Corel Painter XI, with my Wide A3 graphics tablet. However I find the simple pen easier to control.
I cannot draw from head alone a realistic cat for example. I am studying the lessons now, in the B category, the method of breaking down stuff into simple forms seems very interesting and accessible.
Art supplies are very hard to find for drawing. Had to travel for a mile to get some kneaded erasers. When one asks about 2H pencils you'r treated with a very strange look!
I am currently going through the lessons, might even tackle some challenges after I get some noticeable improvements, I do draw everyday in this respect. The only problem is that it sucks

Nice to meet someone from Romania though!
Was a pleasure reading your post. Your gallery is very good, especially the watercolor series!.

Hi! I'm from Romania too

There are many good artists from Romania on this site and I guess anyone feels insulted to hear that they are from a third world country. There are no third world countries in Europe, especially in the European Union. I live in the first world country and I cannot find things or specialized shops in my area so I shop online. Most people in the States shop online. Arts supplies are not cheap in the Sates plus every order online adds a shipping fee that can be $10 -12.
About the realistic cat, if she is realistic must be drawn from a photograph.All things from the head are just imagination.
All the art in my gallery was produced after I joined DS. This March I celebrate one year since I became a member and active in drawing.So just draw and keep in mind that not even supplies matter. You can draw even with a "pix"(RO)

Well, I certainly did not wanted to insult artists. But that is my opinion only. I had the luck to see that information flows more freely in Western Europe. People are more educated in a more artistic sense. People indeed shop only, but usually art stores hold drawing contests, painting contests, there are usually several asociations that direct people to art and so forth. Again, I do not wish to spawn an 3'rd world country argument, it's my opinion only. So you are a drawing teacher? Your art is very good nevertheless, sureley you must have drawn before right? Where are you from?

When I use words I don’t give them my own personal meaning. I go to the generally accepted standards of definitions of words. It is called the dictionary. In my dictionaries I find the definition of the word “talent” as “aptitude”, or “ability”.

Sure any ability has to be developed. Ability often implies "potential ability". But, who can do anything without the aptitude or ability? Sure, I can use a tool or a pencil and not be a professional mechanic or a professional artist. But if I can use the tool I have a measure of ability or aptitude. The measure of how well I use the tool very much depends on my confidence, how much effort I put into learning to develop my “natural ability” and gain the skill that others and my self can recognize and appreciate.

Skill comes from practice and developing our natural abilities.

I am persuaded that almost everyone is born with a certain level of talent for the arts. Some are convinced they have “talent” that should be developed, but others are convinced they have “no talent” and are discouraged from learning and developing skill. I hear adults and young people reinforcing their negative attitudes that prevent them from doing things that they normally could have learned to do if they had not been convinced they “have no talent”.

People do not have to have a great amount of talent to enjoy drawing, they mostly need to “preserve”, “reinforce” and “develop” the “ability” they were born with.

This is simply my perspective or understanding from my personal experience.

Bobby.

I agree with you Bobby on using the terms as they are defined by common usage and dictionaries. For instance one cannot say a cat and refer to a squirrel.

By the way, i am from Bucharest four generations born and living in Bucharest. i am not a teacher of art not even a student of art. Just a hobby.I used to draw in school age 10 -15 , then ocasionally when i had the call to pick up a pencil.It's the motivation that counts.

Here is for you DS members some data on Brasov, the place in Romania where tegramon lives.As you can see this is a major city in Romania and not cut from civilization as he implies.


Brasov (pronounced [brashov]; Hungarian: Brassó; German: Kronstadt; Medieval Latin: Brassovia or Corona) is a city in Romania and the capital of Brasov County, with a population of 284,596, according to the 2002 census, is the 7th largest Romanian city

The first attested mention of Brasov is Terra Saxonum de Barasu ("Saxon Land of Baras"), in a 1252 document.
The German name Kronstadt means "Crown City", and is reflected in the city's coat of arms, as well as in its Medieval Latin name, Corona. The three names of the city (Brasov/Brassó, Kronstadt, and Corona) were used simultaneously in the Middle Ages.

History
1559 first printed book in Romanian language
1757 first Romanian Grammar book
1850 first Romanian highschool
1854 telegraph line
1873 first train
1889 telephone in 22 homes
1911 first flight with a plane by Aurel Vlaicu

Brasov has today
46 kindergartens
28 elementary schools,
7 colleges
7 highschools

Universities:

Transylvania University of Brasov
George Baritiu University
Spiru Haret University
Christian University Dimitrie Cantemir



Opera, Philarmonic, theaters, Libraries like German, French, British, many Romanian public libraries.

A Union of Fine Artists.

wikipedia

Dont believe everything wikipedia says. Much information is outdated. Indeed, in the middle ages the town was a cultural hub to Transilvanya.
Many libraries are now closed, and the only cinema is the one at the mall, at one time it sported three!

The Art School closed it's door in 2008, they dont accept students anymore due to lack of demands. There is indeed an art store, but it's geared towards painting, and they dont place orders for anything else.
Not to mention painting supplies are very expensive around here. Those who wish to study arts, either do it abroad, or in the capital city, Bucharest.
And even there, the entry requirements are very steep. If you wish to take arts as a hobby, usually the price range is around 300$ in a private art school.
It's not at all that rosy, I wish it would though. As for the Union of Fine Artists ... they are virtually non existant in the cultural life of the city.

And I wonder where in the world will you be trained by an art teacher for free?Everywhere you need to pay for your education or training.All American universities are based on tuition. Even in communist Romania I gave private English lessons for a fee to children or adults.The whole point of discussion seems so ridiculous.

We could talk about the minimum wage and the like, but, this is not the best place!
I thoroughly agree, the whole point of discussion is ridiculous.
I shall not enter into an argument with you from now on, on this matter.
It was my opinion anyway, I did not wanted to offend you or anyone else.

If I might interrupt the Romanian wrestling championship for a moment

Kay's given excellent, sensible advice here:



You don't need special pencils or paper, any will do to start with. If you can photograph or scan your drawings into the computer and post them here, there are experienced and knowledgeable members who will be able to give you help and advice.


Dave

Tegramon,
Welcome to Drawspace.
Please enjoy Brenda's excellent lessons and come join us in the weekly challenges.

I am going to close this topic as it is no longer serving our art agenda.
Please feel free to start any other topic and join in on any of the discussions.

It was very interesting to hear about Romania from different view points, thank you.

Hi tegramon, I am a professional artist, author and art educator.
I learned to paint and draw as an adult after contracting M.E and becoming unable to walk, I also lost my cognitive abilities ie: short term memory and was unable to read a book or watch televsion. I began to paint very realistically all of a sudden and had developed skills I never knew I had as a child. I then began a diploma in art and studied for seven years by correspondence. I won awards and government scholarships and became one of the towns leading artists in ten years! I now teach others by internet correspondence, right here at drawpsace.com/courses and I thoroughly support Brendas proclaimation that drawing and painting can be learned.

As for your question, do you need talent to learn to draw? First of all, what is talent for drawing anyway? My answer is this; talent for drawing is the development of the four major comparison skills refined and fine tuned to a higher level than other people possess. We all have these four comparison skills (most healthy people do) and are naturally born with them, it is just that the ones who are seen as talented have a more established set of these skills at a younger age. My husband is one of these people and so is his mother. I am not. I developed my skills through determination, will power, art tuition, and thousands upon thousands of hours drawing. the illness shut down my logic brain that usually tells us that we can't do things - anything that the brain hasn't been developed to accept. OUR BRAIN PHYSICALLY GROWS when we learn to draw. I teach people to develop the necessary parts of the brain that refine these four comparison skills - right here on Drawspace. Yes I am one of the few lucky ones that Brenda has personally hand-selected to offer my services to this wonderful website. I have taught hundreds of people to learn to draw over the past ten years and combine my twenty years of art experience to help others develop the natural talent for drawing taht we are all born with.

As for your second question; I am afraid that Mr Gluck is ill-informed his method is not the only method and nor is my method the only method. I have so much evidence to say that my method works too. There are many methods that can build the parts of the brain that need developing in order to refine our four major comparison skills. All you have to do is begin. I say 'Just Show Up At The Table' this is your art desk...and the rest will take care of itself. Believe you can do it, dedicate yourself to study and ride through the voices in your mind that tell you you can't. Draw while you think you aren't talented and suddenly you will prove yourself wrong - you will surprise yourself one day when you look at the drawing in front of you and say to yourself 'oh my gosh, did I do this?'

All the best on embracing what is rightfully yours - everyone has the right to be able to draw!