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SparrowHawk
After my last drawing with it's horrid reference I decided doing a drawing with a really good reference would be nice. So I looked and looked and looked but I couldn't find anything I particularly liked. I really wasn't going to do another cat, but in the end it was a really good photo that called out to me to draw her and since I'll spend 40-60 hours on this it's important for me to want to do the drawing. This is 10x13" on Mellotex and about 4 hours work so far. The eye probably needs to be darkened some and there are some patterns in it that I don't like. The ear is about half done and the fur isn't integrated into things correctly yet but it's a start. Sorry for the poor photograph ... my lighting wasn't cooperating today.

That's Cassie's eye from an earlier drawing peering out at you from my avatar.

Thanks for looking,
Ken

Click to view attachment
mumwond
QUOTE (SparrowHawk @ Mar 16 2009, 01:30 AM) *
After my last drawing with it's horrid reference I decided doing a drawing with a really good reference would be nice. So I looked and looked and looked but I couldn't find anything I particularly liked. I really wasn't going to do another cat, but in the end it was a really good photo that called out to me to draw her and since I'll spend 40-60 hours on this it's important for me to want to do the drawing. This is 10x13" on Mellotex and about 4 hours work so far. The eye probably needs to be darkened some and there are some patterns in it that I don't like. The ear is about half done and the fur isn't integrated into things correctly yet but it's a start. Sorry for the poor photograph ... my lighting wasn't cooperating today.

That's Cassie's eye from an earlier drawing peering out at you from my avatar.

Thanks for looking,
Ken


Hi Ken
Fascinating start - do you not sketch in the whole face first? It would be good to see your reference. Sorry to be thick, but what is Mellotex? I've seen references to it but haven't a clue as to what it is and where do you get it? I'm in UK, so it may be that it comes under a different name.
ncgirl
Thanks Ken - I'm following this with lots of interest, since drawing animals is my favorite thing to do! I'll echo Norma's question about Mellotex and also ask you if you prefer any particular pencil?
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (mumwond @ Mar 16 2009, 06:47 AM) *
Hi Ken
Fascinating start - do you not sketch in the whole face first? It would be good to see your reference. Sorry to be thick, but what is Mellotex? I've seen references to it but haven't a clue as to what it is and where do you get it? I'm in UK, so it may be that it comes under a different name.

Mellotex isn't available in the US so I order it directly from Mike Sibley (www.sibleyfineart.com) .. however a google search shows it readily available on your side of the puddle. It's all Mike uses and after trying some, I can see why. Hard to explain, but it's very smooth, quite white and takes blacks very well considering it's so smooth.

No, I don't sketch in much ahead of myself. I do a lot of fiddling at first to place the left eye but once I get that in place I simply go slowly outward from there - measuring if necessary but usually I can keep my place with individual hairs or markings.

Here's the reference ...

Click to view attachment

As you can see I'm only creeping up on it at this point, but the placement is just about right and the scale so I should be OK for the rest of this.

Ken
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 16 2009, 07:25 AM) *
Thanks Ken - I'm following this with lots of interest, since drawing animals is my favorite thing to do! I'll echo Norma's question about Mellotex and also ask you if you prefer any particular pencil?

Hello. As for pencils, I only use clutch style pencils with Staedtler refills. I do have a General 6H wooden pencil that I use for some stuff. I use 4H, 2H, F, HB, 2B and 4B grades with a good deal of my work leaning towards the H side.

Ken
ncgirl
Thanks Ken - I'm working on a drawing of a friend's cat - an Abyssinian - and working from a very blurry drawing. Any suggestions? P.S. Cassie is a lovely kitty!
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 16 2009, 02:55 PM) *
Thanks Ken - I'm working on a drawing of a friend's cat - an Abyssinian - and working from a very blurry drawing. Any suggestions? P.S. Cassie is a lovely kitty!

I just finished a 3 cat commission in which one reference photo was the most horrible one I think could be possible. The secret is to go off on the net and find other photos of the same breed. Some may even be in the same basic pose so you could use parts of one if necessary. For instance. my reference was so bad that I coulnd't see much of the nose ... so I found another black cat on the net who was in roughly the same position and superimposed that nose on my reference image and worked a lot from that.

The trickiest part is to get the face width correct and the top of the head.

Thank you for the compliment on Cassie ... I'm pretty sure she already knows that though. With remarkably few exceptions, all cats are beautiful. (IMO)

Ken
Albis_Tina
What a beautiful cat!
And your start drawing her is really great. fur always scares me and I adore everyone who can do it - especially such a fluffy long hair. I now tke a chair, some tea and chocolate and watch the next steps.

Can you please tell me what is Mellotex?
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (Albis_Tina @ Mar 16 2009, 05:03 PM) *
What a beautiful cat!
And your start drawing her is really great. fur always scares me and I adore everyone who can do it - especially such a fluffy long hair. I now tke a chair, some tea and chocolate and watch the next steps.

Can you please tell me what is Mellotex?

Mellotex is a really wonderful paper for drawing. It isn't available in the US or this side of the pond for some unknown reason. I heard about it from Mike Sibley and bought some from him last year. I like it so much that I rarely use anything else now. Shipping is a bit pricey, but considering that one shipment of 5 sheet will last me about a year, that's not so bad. It comes rolled up so some time is needed to flatten it back as best you can. I used books on a flat table but I still have a little spring in the paper after all this time.

Go look at www.sibleyfineart.com

Fur is actually not that hard ... nor is hair really. Most of the trouble is in our heads. I tend to put down a bunch of layers of graphite till I get a bit darker than the shadows in the hair/fur section I'm doing. Then I lift hair with a sharp edge of a stick eraser. Go back and do it all again ... 3 times. By them things are about right and I can concentrate on the final top layer.

I've shown this before, but here's a closeup of what can be done ... this is about 5" x 1.5" roughly. It is time consuming however ...

Click to view attachment

Ken
Claudio Pousa
[quote name='SparrowHawk' date='Mar 16 2009, 01:01 PM' post='57461']

No, I don't sketch in much ahead of myself. I do a lot of fiddling at first to place the left eye but once I get that in place I simply go slowly outward from there - measuring if necessary but usually I can keep my place with individual hairs or markings.


Hi Ken, congratulations for your WIP. It is really good, as all the other work in your gallery.
I would like to ask you two rookie questions:

1) When you said that you "measure", what do you really do? Do you actually measure centimetres with a ruler ? Do you measure angles? How precise is this measure? Do you measure your reference photo and scale it up or down? You measure with your pencil, as in the art books? ????

2) Following a book by Petigrew, I tried to draw on the H side (2H, 4H, 6H) but it was like using a nail. If I went soft, the drawing was so light that I barely saw it; when working a little bit harder I felt like carving the paper with a nail. Furthermore, some people advice to use a single piece of paper over a hard surface, while others say to use several pieces of paper to make a softer surface. So, my dear and respected friend, how the @@#$%$#$$!!!! am I supposed to work?

Thanks for your answer.
Claudio
SparrowHawk
QUOTE
Hi Ken, congratulations for your WIP. It is really good, as all the other work in your gallery.
I would like to ask you two rookie questions:

1) When you said that you "measure", what do you really do? Do you actually measure centimetres with a ruler ? Do you measure angles? How precise is this measure? Do you measure your reference photo and scale it up or down? You measure with your pencil, as in the art books? ????


no .. it's not really that accurate or precise. Say I'm at the top of the eye and I need to draw the eyebrow in this one. I look at the angle and the distance it goes up and try to duplicate that very lightly with something like the side of a 2H pencil. Once I get things close I go a bit darker and maybe erase a few hairs. All very slow but I eventually get to pretty much exact location through that trial and error method. Once that eyebrow is in the correct place I can move up to the forehead and the hairs that go outward from there .. and so on and so forth. Sometimes with human portraits I will get one eye right and then measure across the bridge of the nose with something - based on the width of the existing eye. Then I'll try it on my drawing and slowly nudge it into the correct placement.

QUOTE
2) Following a book by Petigrew, I tried to draw on the H side (2H, 4H, 6H) but it was like using a nail. If I went soft, the drawing was so light that I barely saw it; when working a little bit harder I felt like carving the paper with a nail. Furthermore, some people advice to use a single piece of paper over a hard surface, while others say to use several pieces of paper to make a softer surface. So, my dear and respected friend, how the @@#$%$#$!!!! am I supposed to work?

I do a lot of drawing on the H side - in fact nearly all my areas begin with 2H or 4H layers. The thing is that I put layer after layer after layer after layer after ... you get the idea. I build it up but each layer is quite light. Once I get things pretty well evenly covered I'll branch out to something darker - maybe and HB or even a 2B for a rather dark area. Unless I need a hard edge, the pencils are rather dull and I'll do more layers with them .. but VERY lightly again. In fact, it's so light that the pencil is mostly floating above the paper much of the time and just barely kissing the surface as I move it. That avoids harder lines and very slowly creeps up on the tonal value I want.

My drawing table has a hard top and I don't put anything under the paper. I have a lot of good light, of course. A picture is worth 1000 words .. here's my setup. I have found that it's very helpful to use a computer for my reference as I can zoom in as closely as I need with out a magnifier. I can also put the reference up next to my drawing to see how it compares. I also think it's important to have some music in the background to help me concentrate on the drawing itself.

Click to view attachment

The secret, if you want to call it that, I think is patience and going rather slowly. If you try to arrive too quickly things tend to look like you did and features don't quite look finished or at least not as richly toned as I might like.

Hope that helps a little anyway, Claudio. I'm sorry to have to say that it's pretty much like anything .. to build skill you have to practice a lot and try various things to see what works for you and what doesn't. Nothing can take the place of patience though. One of the old saying with anything from music to art is "practice, practice, practice." I change that slighlty to "practice patience, practice patience, practice patience". ohmy.gif
Claudio Pousa
Thank you very, very much Ken. You gave me very good advice and precious tips. I have never taken drawing classes, so I learn from books or people like you who kindly and generously give advice.
I'll try to work out my next drawings in this line, and try to be very, very patient, as endless patience seems the key smile.gif
Thanks again. I will continue reading this post.
Best regards.
Claudio
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (Claudio Pousa @ Mar 16 2009, 10:19 PM) *
Thank you very, very much Ken. You gave me very good advice and precious tips. I have never taken drawing classes, so I learn from books or people like you who kindly and generously give advice.
I'll try to work out my next drawings in this line, and try to be very, very patient, as endless patience seems the key smile.gif
Thanks again. I will continue reading this post.
Best regards.
Claudio


I started out drawing by taking a class at my local art shop about 4 years ago. That was 12 weeks of basics but by the end I was happy enough with my drawings to keep going. From there I found Wet Canvas and developed my style and technique while being pretty active over there. Like most of us, it was from watching other artists progress in drawings and getting critiques on my work that helped me improve. But mostly it was good old practice, practice and then practice some more. I also bought lots of books but only 2 stand out as really being helpful to me. One is JD Hillberry's book on textures and the other is Miike Sibley's Drawing Line to Life.

And yes, I think patience is really the key. In a way graphite is much like painting in oils because I seem to be constantly moving the graphite around till I finally get it in about the right places. Sometimes that takes longer than others but it's rarely fast.
oliverandjazz
hello and thank you for sharing your lovely WIP with us. you are very skilled. I have a question not so much of your drawing but of your table..i have one like that but i hate using it..here is why..i was told it needs to be at an angle..so i have my table angled , raised in the back and i get sooo frustrated cause EVERYTHING rolls off..so since i find myself on the floor so much picking up pencils, i tend to just stay there..and work on the floor..or on the couch..i see your work is lovely and your table is FLAT..so i take it I can go ahead and lay it flat?

i have also cruised your gallery and your work is very lovely , thanks for sharing wink.gif
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (oliverandjazz @ Mar 17 2009, 08:41 AM) *
hello and thank you for sharing your lovely WIP with us. you are very skilled. I have a question not so much of your drawing but of your table..i have one like that but i hate using it..here is why..i was told it needs to be at an angle..so i have my table angled , raised in the back and i get sooo frustrated cause EVERYTHING rolls off..so since i find myself on the floor so much picking up pencils, i tend to just stay there..and work on the floor..or on the couch..i see your work is lovely and your table is FLAT..so i take it I can go ahead and lay it flat?

i have also cruised your gallery and your work is very lovely , thanks for sharing wink.gif

Hi Maestro. I think the reason some artists suggest that you work at an angle is so you view the work straight on. On a flat table there is an angle (sort of a parallax thing) so it could make things more difficult. I have tried working at an angle too but I can't seem to feel comfortable and, like you, I have to hold the work up which does not work for me either. Some artists tape their work to the table but I find I turn my drawing every which way when I work so having it anchored to the table isn't an option. I have grown quite fond of working with my table flat and I don't feel it hinders me in any way.

My table does, however, have a thin metal plate that goes along the front edge and sticks up about a pencil thickness above the table top to catch stuff.

Thank you for the kind words.
oliverandjazz
QUOTE (SparrowHawk @ Mar 17 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Hi Maestro. I think the reason some artists suggest that you work at an angle is so you view the work straight on. On a flat table there is an angle (sort of a parallax thing) so it could make things more difficult. I have tried working at an angle too but I can't seem to feel comfortable and, like you, I have to hold the work up which does not work for me either. Some artists tape their work to the table but I find I turn my drawing every which way when I work so having it anchored to the table isn't an option. I have grown quite fond of working with my table flat and I don't feel it hinders me in any way.

My table does, however, have a thin metal plate that goes along the front edge and sticks up about a pencil thickness above the table top to catch stuff.

Thank you for the kind words.



biggrin.gif maestro laugh.gif
mumwond
QUOTE (SparrowHawk @ Mar 16 2009, 05:01 PM) *
Mellotex isn't available in the US so I order it directly from Mike Sibley (www.sibleyfineart.com) .. however a google search shows it readily available on your side of the puddle. It's all Mike uses and after trying some, I can see why. Hard to explain, but it's very smooth, quite white and takes blacks very well considering it's so smooth.

You've really started something - I looked up the Mike Sibley web site and now I've signed up for a two day workshop with him! - It takes place less than 20 miles from where my son lives and it seemed too good a chance to miss. I'll get some Mellotex when I'm there - saves postage!
oliverandjazz
oh yes, norma i do envy you..i wish he would come to maine and do one here. I am sure you have noticed he has a workshop going on drawspace too..i am bumming as i can not afford to join in at the moment, but i did buy his book and i adore it. wink.gif
ncgirl
Hi Ken - took your advice and surfed the net for some photos of Abyssinians - I think I found one or two. I'm comparing proportions to the cat that I'm drawing and other cats in general - Abbys have enormous eyes, and I keep thinking I'm overdoing them.

Sorry to keep picking your brain, but when you say you measure for proportion, do you use a graph method or more free-hand? Also I appreciate your comments about being patient - so often it seems we are in a race to finish a drawing, not sure why. My drawings always take a long time, if I rush, it shows! dry.gif
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 19 2009, 08:50 AM) *
Hi Ken - took your advice and surfed the net for some photos of Abyssinians - I think I found one or two. I'm comparing proportions to the cat that I'm drawing and other cats in general - Abbys have enormous eyes, and I keep thinking I'm overdoing them.

Sorry to keep picking your brain, but when you say you measure for proportion, do you use a graph method or more free-hand? Also I appreciate your comments about being patient - so often it seems we are in a race to finish a drawing, not sure why. My drawings always take a long time, if I rush, it shows! dry.gif


Mornin Ms.Carolina. I free hand stuff and just use my eye. The proportions are relational .. sometimes I even count hair widths in my head. Why? Well, believe it or not, I haven't the patience to grid. Doesn't make sense I know .. but I like to jump in and get started. Once I get things in place to begin I'm happier using my eye. I also regularly scan my work and put it up next to the reference in my computer (see the laptop next to my drawing desk in the photo) so I can zoom in and compare. As a result, I generally come really close to the reference photo in proportions by the time I'm done. My technique would not work well however, with P&I as much of what I do is to move stuff around. In fact, I often refer to my drawings as silly putty subjects. I like oil paints for the same reason though you've got to be careful about playing in the mud with those.

I have often wondered what the rush is to finish a drawing - we all feel it to one degree or another. When we first start out in drawing it might be to get another paper to put on the completed stack to make the collection bigger. But after awhile that excuse doesn't work any more. What is a drawing beyond drawing shapes and various textures? Each drawing is the same only different shapes and textures but the process is basically identical. So then why should I be in a hurry to finish drawing shapes and textures only to move on to another piece of paper and draw more shapes and textures? happy.gif Not only that, but I want each drawing to be the very best I can do at that particular moment in time. I can't do that by rushing ... and the artwork is going to last long after I'm gone (I hope anyway!) so it will represent me to anyone who sees it. I would like to be remembered for paying attention to detail and doing my very best with everything I undertake. I know my skills will increase as the years go by and I practice more, but I don't want to look at older work and see that I rushed through it and did not do my best. Even if nobody else knows ... I will.

Ken
Mike Sibley
QUOTE (SparrowHawk @ Mar 19 2009, 02:07 PM) *
I have often wondered what the rush is to finish a drawing - we all feel it to one degree or another. When we first start out in drawing it might be to get another paper to put on the completed stack to make the collection bigger. But after awhile that excuse doesn't work any more. What is a drawing beyond drawing shapes and various textures? Each drawing is the same only different shapes and textures but the process is basically identical. So then why should I be in a hurry to finish drawing shapes and textures only to move on to another piece of paper and draw more shapes and textures? happy.gif Not only that, but I want each drawing to be the very best I can do at that particular moment in time. I can't do that by rushing ... and the artwork is going to last long after I'm gone (I hope anyway!) so it will represent me to anyone who sees it. I would like to be remembered for paying attention to detail and doing my very best with everything I undertake.

You've expressed that perfectly, Ken! I've seen so much at over the years spoilt by rushed drawing. The most common occurrence being in animal head-studies - having drawn the head, interest wanes, and the neck or body is noticeably hurried.

"Been there - done that" as they say wink.gif So now I always remind myself that a drawing is only as good as its weakest part, which tends to help me maintain the standard.

That's not to say that suggestion can't play a role, or that sometimes an impression of something not fully understood can't succeed. But the overall reality can be affected. If I've spent 200 hours on a drawing, the last thing I want to happen is for one area of low reality to drag the rest of the drawing down to its level. And it will!
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (Mike Sibley @ Mar 19 2009, 11:41 AM) *
You've expressed that perfectly, Ken! I've seen so much at over the years spoilt by rushed drawing. The most common occurrence being in animal head-studies - having drawn the head, interest wanes, and the neck or body is noticeably hurried.

"Been there - done that" as they say wink.gif So now I always remind myself that a drawing is only as good as its weakest part, which tends to help me maintain the standard.

That's not to say that suggestion can't play a role, or that sometimes an impression of something not fully understood can't succeed. But the overall reality can be affected. If I've spent 200 hours on a drawing, the last thing I want to happen is for one area of low reality to drag the rest of the drawing down to its level. And it will!

Hi Mike ... glad to see you over here too ... small world! I am working on the suggestion thing a little more this last year in that I am trying to use less detail and perhaps even blur things to force the viewer to focus on what I wish. It's not that I am rushing or cutting corners in those areas - in fact drawing something out of focus can actually be quite a challenge .. but it has it's uses. In technical terms I would be manipulating the aperture were I working with a camera but unlike a photographer, I can change the physics and apply that anywhere I choose. As I said I'm just starting to experiment and it's not appropriate to all compositions. You can see my experiments with this on the edges of my drawing of Casper (Casper in the gallery).

And as you said, the drawing is only as good as it's weakest point and I would prefer that weak link NOT be my rush to completion.

Ken
ncgirl
Ken, good insight and very true! The joy of drawing is the drawing itself, not always the finished product, in my opinion. Although I do find myself looking at the drawings I have finished and it's a nice feeling. I too hope that some of my drawings outlast me, and don't get tossed out or sold at a yard sale for a quarter. blink.gif

I've done a couple of pen/ink also - they didn't turn out good at all. I put them on my gallery anyway as a "yardstick" and although I like the effect, and the "new" medium, it's a challenge in that the line you put down is the one you live with. I plan to continue trying pen/ink when the mood strikes - who knows, I might improve! I tried one drawing with a sharpie, of a snowman, it was so bad. My husband loves it though, calls it the Zombie Snowman and keeps it around when he needs cheering up. tongue.gif

I started off measuring and free-handing, learned about graphing, and tried that for a while. Now I'm finding myself doing a combination of the two! That's probably not the right way to do things, but it seems to work ok.
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 19 2009, 04:31 PM) *
I started off measuring and free-handing, learned about graphing, and tried that for a while. Now I'm finding myself doing a combination of the two! That's probably not the right way to do things, but it seems to work ok.

In the end, isn't it the result that counts? How any of us got there is basically immaterial. There are some phenomenal tools to help us .. like using Photoshop for composition as Mike sometimes does. Speaking of which .. have you ever considered doing a thorough tutorial for your Photoshop techniques, Mike? You touched on it in your book, but there is a good deal more to it I'm sure.
ncgirl
Yeah a Photoshop tutorial would be cool! (by the way - Hi Mike! I've heard some great things about you - thanks for chiming in! happy.gif ). I've seen some work on the gallery that others have done using Photoshop, it looks really interesting.

Please forgive if this reply sounds a little incoherent - I'm at work this morning and for some reason the goof-o-meter is high.

Both of you are giving some important pointers here and I for one appreciate it, especially about taking the time to do it right and the weakest point of a drawing. Please note that you're dealing with a newbie when I ask this question - is there a point where you just say "enough", and leave a drawing as is, even though you know it could still be worked on more?

Here's my progress on Roxie's portrait - this kitty belongs to my best friend and she is a pistol! Reference photo first. I decided to leave off most of her body and just do a head portrait - for some reason I didn't like the hunchy pose she's in. The drawing is darkened a lot since the lines are so light. If things work out today dry.gif I'll start with her nose and begin detailing. By the way, if anyone sees where I'm screwing it up really bad - tell me - it won't hurt my feelings at all!
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 20 2009, 09:25 AM) *
Yeah a Photoshop tutorial would be cool! (by the way - Hi Mike! I've heard some great things about you - thanks for chiming in! happy.gif ). I've seen some work on the gallery that others have done using Photoshop, it looks really interesting.

Please forgive if this reply sounds a little incoherent - I'm at work this morning and for some reason the goof-o-meter is high.

Both of you are giving some important pointers here and I for one appreciate it, especially about taking the time to do it right and the weakest point of a drawing. Please note that you're dealing with a newbie when I ask this question - is there a point where you just say "enough", and leave a drawing as is, even though you know it could still be worked on more?

Here's my progress on Roxie's portrait - this kitty belongs to my best friend and she is a pistol! Reference photo first. I decided to leave off most of her body and just do a head portrait - for some reason I didn't like the hunchy pose she's in. The drawing is darkened a lot since the lines are so light. If things work out today dry.gif I'll start with her nose and begin detailing. By the way, if anyone sees where I'm screwing it up really bad - tell me - it won't hurt my feelings at all!

I think you're doing fine ... it's not the easiest of references to work from as the focus isn't that good. I took the liberty of retouching the reference in Photoshop and desaturated it to remove the color information. I tried to sharpen it but you can only do so much if it's not clear to begin with. Photoshop seemed to think you were working at 5x6" which is what I sized it for, but that, quite honestly, is too small to get any kind of reasonable detail I believe.

Anyway, here's what I came up with ... perhaps it will be of some use. I also scaled the size down to save time and space on the upload.

Click to view attachment

Working in graphite means it's usually quite helpful to have a copy of the image without color. Color information contains information that you may well need and it's a good idea to keep a full color shot around for reference, but to get general tonalities balanced, grayscale is a big help.

As for knowing when to quit .. that's not exactly a cut and dried answer. If you keep going too far the drawing appears to be overworked and that isn't a good thing. Quit too soon and you have a weak area(s). Generally I decide enough is enough when some things happen. First, I'm comfortable that there is enough detail to satisfy the viewer (me at that point) and that there is the feeling of balance in the piece. Asking other people is generally a waste of time - if they're like my friends I either get "that's nice ... did you hear about so and so ... " or "Holy COW!" ... both of little use because they're from untrained eyes. The paper can also dictate when enough is enough ... this can also signal time to begin anew. We've all been there when the paper begins to scream from the torture we put it through and it loses it's cooperative spirit. And there's just the instinct that it's time to quit. I get tired of the drawing and somehow know when I need to just put down my pencil. I will generally let the piece sit for a couple days and then look at it again with fresh eyes to be sure I haven't missed something. Nearly always there are some tweaks to do. I do have one rule however, and that is that once I sign it .. I'm officially done touching it with a pencil. Otherwise it would be easy to pull it out after another 6 months or a year, see where I could THEN do something better and the piece would never be "finished" .. and it would be picked at forever. I think it's better, at least for me, to just find a place where it's representative of the best my skills will allow at that particular moment in time ... and just accept that. But then, that's just me. Others may feel differently.

Ken
ncgirl
Wow! I can really make out the details in her little face now! And...I think I need to do some corrections on my drawing! happy.gif This will really help out. Thanks Ken!
Mike Sibley
QUOTE (SparrowHawk @ Mar 19 2009, 10:17 PM) *
... like using Photoshop for composition as Mike sometimes does. Speaking of which .. have you ever considered doing a thorough tutorial for your Photoshop techniques, Mike? You touched on it in your book, but there is a good deal more to it I'm sure.

There were two subjects that I omitted from the book because I couldn't cover them sufficiently well in just a chapter... that was one of them.

I have ideas for six more books (smaller books.... honest!) and I'm currently undecided to which of two this topic belongs. But no doubt I'll write a short version somewhere - maybe soon. I find Photoshop amazingly flexible and invaluable when composing a study.
Mike Sibley
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 20 2009, 01:25 PM) *
Both of you are giving some important pointers here and I for one appreciate it, especially about taking the time to do it right and the weakest point of a drawing. Please note that you're dealing with a newbie when I ask this question - is there a point where you just say "enough", and leave a drawing as is, even though you know it could still be worked on more?

First, Ken has said everything I wanted to say. Thanks, Ken! wink.gif

There HAS to be a point where enough is enough because no drawing is ever really finished. It can always be tweaked or even drastically altered, but there comes a time when you find yourself playing with it for no real reason. THAT's the time to stop! biggrin.gif

Personally, I work from top left to bottom right ( it's not actually that rigid but you get the idea) and I work on one small area at a time. I complete that area to the best of my ability and virtually never return to it. Then one day I move my hand-guard over to uncover the next blank area.... and there isn't one. It's finished.

Like Ken, I put it away for a few days (long enough to get it out of my mind) then I look at it from a distance to see if it's balanced, and make any necessary adjustments.

Unlike Ken I don't sign my work - well, I do but only in the bottom margin. Having spent 150 hours or more trying to inject a reality into the study, I've never quite understood the habit of signing within the piece, which surely reverses the reality I was trying to create.
SparrowHawk
Here's another 4 hours on this or so. The ear and eye are about done I think but for the rest I'm still finding edges and values as opposed to thinking of details.

Click to view attachment

Thanks for looking,
Ken
SparrowHawk
Here's todays update. I'm nearly finished with the left side cheek but still more to do along the jaw and mouth area. She's actually thicker than she appears here on the left as well. The nose is not done nor is the forehead at this point. It's an unusual angle and slightly awkward at this point but I'm making headway. The chin really is that large - the mouth is slightly off which doesn't help either.

One thing that I'm finding really interesting with this one is that it's almost like I'm touching her when I'm drawing her features - sounds strange in a way, but I'm exploring the planes of her face with the tip of my pencil - crevasses and high points. And I'm also enjoying the pleasure of a good reference photo.

Click to view attachment

Thanks for looking,
Ken
ncgirl
Ken, she is looking just wonderful! I totally understand what you're saying when you feel line you are touching her as you draw. If you've ever read Frederick Franck's books, he describes something similar during drawing, when the mind ceases to be dominant and the heart/eyes take over. It's an incredible experience. Each stroke of the pencil becomes important, and time passes without notice. There are no words for it.

As predicted, I have nothing to show this morning, but hope to re-focus today and get something done.

Cassie is going to love her portrait - is she following your progress? happy.gif

SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 23 2009, 11:49 AM) *
Cassie is going to love her portrait - is she following your progress? happy.gif

Nah ... she couldn't care less if she tried. On the bright side, however, Casper isn't jealous either.

Ken
ElenaM
Hi, Ken. I just wonder if you can post a larger file of your drawing. I assume that you took a photo and didn't edit it for contrast so the image is on the dark rather than bright version. But if it is larger we can appreciate your work better. Thank you.
ncgirl
Some progress on Roxie - my friend sent me another photo, this one not quite as blurry, so I could see her markings better. I decided to keep the same pose as the first photo and "morph" the two together. Here's the result so far. It's very rough, I haven't taken the time to do any blending yet, and as always, the scanner darkens the picture too much. happy.gif

I have learned something this week - the wonderful expensive pencils I dreamed of and finally got are terrible - they won't hold a point or make a good mark - I put them back in their box and went back to using my cheesy little Reeves gift pack, it's doing great. High price doesn't always mean a better tool.

Suggestions, criticisms welcome!
Click to view attachment
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ElenaM @ Mar 23 2009, 12:23 PM) *
Hi, Ken. I just wonder if you can post a larger file of your drawing. I assume that you took a photo and didn't edit it for contrast so the image is on the dark rather than bright version. But if it is larger we can appreciate your work better. Thank you.


Hi Elena. I did try to compensate for poor lighting but the edges proved quite difficult. Anyway, here's a larger image - sorry it's a bit grainy. The original photo wasn't quite enough to work with unfortunately.

Ken

Click to view attachment
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 26 2009, 03:07 PM) *
Some progress on Roxie - my friend sent me another photo, this one not quite as blurry, so I could see her markings better. I decided to keep the same pose as the first photo and "morph" the two together. Here's the result so far. It's very rough, I haven't taken the time to do any blending yet, and as always, the scanner darkens the picture too much. happy.gif

I have learned something this week - the wonderful expensive pencils I dreamed of and finally got are terrible - they won't hold a point or make a good mark - I put them back in their box and went back to using my cheesy little Reeves gift pack, it's doing great. High price doesn't always mean a better tool.

Suggestions, criticisms welcome!
Click to view attachment

Hi NC ...That's coming along nicely now. You have a good shape for the face. The only thing I would suggest is not to tackle so much of the fur at a time. At the moment the basic hair tract is correct, but as you fill it in, take it in small areas. For instance, around the eye is the eyebrow and the fur usually curves around the eye from the nose area. Generally though you will find at least 2 or more layers (sections) under the eye which look best if taken section at a time. Quite often the fur markings on the outside of the eye comes to a point and trail off - and on top is the eyebrow with forehead to ear fur going off at an angle. Take each of these sections individually - the drawing will show it and be much better for it. Also be sure you get those pupils as dark as you can go with a sharp edge. The irises can be done with many MANY layers to slowly build up tone and graphite. Periodically I erase lightly to move the graphite around and put it down again. For my style (not necessarily anyone else's) the irises (both human and animal) do not look quite right until I've removed most of the graphite and put it down again. You can do this either by gently erasing with a stick eraser or preferably dabbing with something like BluTack or your kneaded eraser. To my eye, it gives the iris much greater depth and lustre. But you're doing just fine so far I think.

Click to view attachment

I should also mention that those reflections are really critical to a cat eye. We cannot see that dome yet we much indicate that it exists or the eye won't "read" right. This is often most easily done using the reflection. Be sure it curves.

As for pencils .. it takes some experimentation to figure out what you like and what you don't. I use clutch pencils with Staedtler refills only. That combination for me is carved in stone at this point. No other refill meets my specifications and I like the clutch pencils because they never change shape or weight as I use up the graphite the way wooden pencils do. Also, wooden pencils do not always put the graphite precisely in the middle of the wooden casing which results in an out of round sharpening with wood not evenly distributed around the core. This can be VERY annoying when drawing with the side of the pencil when you should be getting graphite but actually are trying to draw with wood. This is impossible with the clutch pencils. Then I can also extend the graphite to whatever length I wish, draw, and then retract it. With wood I'd have to shave away the casing but I could not put it back so I'd be forced to use the pencil that way at least till it wore down again (or break it and resharpen).

And as for sharpness ... I do sharpen my pencils periodically but only when I need a particularly sharp tip. Otherwise I draw with the pencil at about a 45* angle (consistently the same side!) so I basically wear the tip down to an ellipse. This gives me about a 2mm flat area with which to draw and fill in tone gently (no lines ... only blended values). If I want a sharper tip for a detail, all I need to do is twist the pencil holder around and there is the sharp edge of that ellipse right there.

Hope that helps some ... it takes awhile to find the right materials for you. Fortunately drawing isn't very expensive a hobby. One could easily set themselves up with every thing they could possibly need for under $100. Compare that to a set of oil paints, brushes, easel, medium, knife, pallette, canvas and possibly mahl stick. Then what if you don't care for that brand of oils? I know when I have painted in the past I've found I prefer W&N student grade sap green for foliage for instance. But I like Permalba white and liquitex (don't even know if they're still in business!) for most of the rest of my oils. It took quite a bit of money and practice to learn those thing .. graphite is a fraction of that cost.

Anyway, hope that helps a bit,
Ken
ncgirl
Hi Ken - thanks for the suggestions, I did go too fast on the "forehead" area of Roxie and around her eyes. Incidentally, that's the marks my way-too-expensive pencils were making. You can see the frustration in that area of this drawing. sad.gif At that point, I just really didn't know what to do. I plan to erase all of that area, do it over again and slooooow down. A nice rainy weekend is coming, and I can spend some time on this drawing. I've been studying my own cats very carefully to note direction of fur.

Especially good instructions on the eyes. They are the most intriguing part of a cat and it's important to get them right. I'll try your technique, especially curving the highlight on the eye - this is the first full-face drawing I've done of a kitty and want to make it look wonderful. Every day and every drawing, I am learning something new and appreciate the instruction and input!

ElenaM
Thanks, Ken. You always can edit an image for contrast and light.Basically any photograph needs being edited.
SparrowHawk
Well, here's this weekends struggles. I have spent about 8 hours or so on her body and hair over there. I am only now starting to be OK with it but it was a real challenge that brought me close to tossing the drawing and starting over .. but I got lucky and I think this is going to be OK now. Still a lot of areas that need a little touching up, blending, softening, value adjustment etc. Incidentally, that long hair on her side is actually there but it's not an extension of her fringe. It extends to about the top of her shoulder and goes around to her belly - like wings.

Click to view attachment
ElenaM
very nice.love the fur.the rendition of the volume of the coat is perfect.
She is already huggable biggrin.gif, even with one eye wink.gif

PS. I have drawn one cat, my first cat ever, in colored pencils, it took me three sessions of 2 hours and i wondered if i would get the values right in graphite. I really don't know how to render all the white fur she has.Maybe you have some suggestions for this particular cat, Regina.How would you do it in graphite. I wonder if you can figure that out without turning the drawing into grayscale.



By the way are you familiar with CP or other medium like pastels. I saw many pet artists drawing cats in pastel and the results are great.
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ElenaM @ Mar 29 2009, 10:58 PM) *
I have drawn one cat, my first cat ever, in colored pencils, it took me three sessions of 2 hours and i wondered if i would get the values right in graphite. I really don't know how to render all the white fur she has.Maybe you have some suggestions for this particular cat, Regina.How would you do it in graphite. I wonder if you can figure that out without turning the drawing into grayscale.


That's a very nice drawing, Elena. The hardest part about getting the values right are actually the darker areas I think. For the white, I put down about 4 solid layers of 4H till everything is evenly covered. Then I use my eraser technique for drawing hairs. Once thats done I'll go back over it with a few more layers of 4H. I'll probably do that 2-3 times and finish up by adjusting individual hairs for proper width and ends.


QUOTE
By the way are you familiar with CP or other medium like pastels. I saw many pet artists drawing cats in pastel and the results are great.

I have never done any portraits in anything but graphite. Years ago I did some landscapes in oils, but nothing for about 17 years.

Ken
ncgirl
Ken your drawing is absolutely gorgeous - you can really tell the time you spent on it. I've read your tip about 4 layers of 4H pencil for the white fur, I'm going to try it on my little drawing. Do you use blending techniques at all? Just curious. I know what you mean about feeling ready to toss the drawing, mine has come close several times to the trash can! unsure.gif

Hi Elena! Good drawing of the cat! Have you used watercolor pencils? If yes, what do you think of them compared to color pencils?
SparrowHawk
QUOTE (ncgirl @ Mar 30 2009, 10:56 AM) *
Ken your drawing is absolutely gorgeous - you can really tell the time you spent on it. I've read your tip about 4 layers of 4H pencil for the white fur, I'm going to try it on my little drawing. Do you use blending techniques at all? Just curious. I know what you mean about feeling ready to toss the drawing, mine has come close several times to the trash can! unsure.gif

Hi Elena! Good drawing of the cat! Have you used watercolor pencils? If yes, what do you think of them compared to color pencils?

Hi NC. I do blend sometimes, but very infrequently and for very specific purposes. With my cat drawings I may blur the distant edges of the fur using a tortillon. There are also places in the eye that I will blend, but that's about it - even with human portraits. If I feel the need to blur something or take the edge of detail away, I'll just use something like an F pencil and put down a few layers of that. It has the effect of blending the upper layers to a slight blur.

Generally I want all the work I did with the fur to show and blending would destroy it - just as it destroys skin texture in my human portraits. So I only blend occasionally and only for specific purposes.

Ken
ElenaM
Thank you, Ken. I got the idea. I need ages to finish a portrait with so many layers. And my problem is patience.Yet I am tempted to try a cat in graphite anyway. See how far my patience takes me.

Sandra, the cat Regina, above, was done in Caran d'ache watercolor pencils dry.They work like any colored pencil only when wet they become painting.I actually love them dry not wet but when wet they have more vividness.
I must have used some other Cp for hues that i don't have in my 32 pieces set.The drawing is on Canson MI-teintes pad, a quality paper, very important element in CP work.
ncgirl
Ken, Elena, anyone else - I have hit a snag with my drawing and need help. I was working on the drawing in my car this morning and heard an odd buzzing from the visor. I pulled it down and there was a big fat bumblebee there! I set the drawing down on the seat, got my small paintbrush, rolled down the window and tried to brush the bee out of the window. Instead of flying out the window to freedom and happiness, he plopped down on my drawing, spattering it with a yellowish substance (bee pee?). I opened the door and got him brushed out finally, and tried to quickly and carefully mop up the drawing with one of the dozen paper towels in my car. Most of it came up, but there is a small smear underneath the drawing. I'm using Bristol Smooth 300, and am wondering what to do?
1 - try to very carefully see if an eraser will take it off
2 - wait until time to frame it and mat over the stain
3 - start the drawing over (definitely not my favorite option)

Is there something out there that will remove stains?

P.S. After mopping up the bee pee, I found the bee lying on the concrete, so very carefully (he was still buzzing loud) moved him over to a grassy area where there's plenty of pollen today. He seemed a lot happier. happy.gif
ElenaM
Sandra, I am sorry to hear about your accident. What I know from experience is that any substance coming from an animal, insect leaves stains that cannot be removed. So my suggestion is to leave it there and try to work over it if possible.
oliverandjazz
QUOTE (ElenaM @ Mar 29 2009, 10:58 PM) *
very nice.love the fur.the rendition of the volume of the coat is perfect.
She is already huggable biggrin.gif, even with one eye wink.gif

PS. I have drawn one cat, my first cat ever, in colored pencils, it took me three sessions of 2 hours and i wondered if i would get the values right in graphite. I really don't know how to render all the white fur she has.Maybe you have some suggestions for this particular cat, Regina.How would you do it in graphite. I wonder if you can figure that out without turning the drawing into grayscale.



By the way are you familiar with CP or other medium like pastels. I saw many pet artists drawing cats in pastel and the results are great.



Elena, this is by far my favorite piece of art in your works..you did a brilliant job..outstanding..congrats to you! wink.gif
ElenaM
Thanks so much, my friend. I really am curious if i can do something similar in graphite. This was a very enjoyable experience I had as i love cats so much.
oliverandjazz
QUOTE (ElenaM @ Apr 1 2009, 01:54 PM) *
Thanks so much, my friend. I really am curious if i can do something similar in graphite. This was a very enjoyable experience I had as i love cats so much.



course you can, i have faith and just think in terms of light medium and dark and you should be all set.. wink.gif
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